Discussion:
OT: riddles of evolution
(too old to reply)
Steven Sullivan
2005-11-02 19:18:32 UTC
Permalink
here's one:

The anti-evolution forces currently on trial in Dover, PA -- and the
'intelligent design' movement generally -- claim that their goal is NOT to
get (Christian) religion into science classes, it's about getting
competing ideas into the curriculum.

Why then, did they hire the Thomas More center to be their
lawyers in the Dover case?

The TMC's stated purpose:


"Our purpose is to be the sword and shield for people of
faith, providing legal representation without charge to defend
and protect Christians and their religious beliefs in the public
square. ... "

Hmm.

I think I hear Baby Jebus crying again...
--
-S
"The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing stupidity of religious
fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow
DAVID RHEAULT
2005-11-02 19:52:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Sullivan
"Our purpose is to be the sword and shield for people of
faith, providing legal representation
without charge
So who's paying the bills?
Post by Steven Sullivan
to defend
and protect Christians and their religious beliefs in the public
square. ... "
rojon
2005-11-02 20:39:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Sullivan
The anti-evolution forces currently on trial in Dover, PA -- and the
'intelligent design' movement generally -- claim that their goal is NOT to
get (Christian) religion into science classes, it's about getting
competing ideas into the curriculum.
Why then, did they hire the Thomas More center to be their
lawyers in the Dover case?
"Our purpose is to be the sword and shield for people of
faith, providing legal representation without charge to defend
and protect Christians and their religious beliefs in the public
square. ... "
This is quite easy.

It isn't against the law for Christians to support ID in classrooms
since Christians believe an Intelligent God created the universe.
Inversely, there is nothing wrong is an ID advocate who maybe does not
believe in the Christian God to allow them to fund and or defend ID
since they are aligned. In fact, this cooperation even substantiates
the ID claim to not promote the Christian religion in classrooms..
Steven Sullivan
2005-11-02 21:23:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
The anti-evolution forces currently on trial in Dover, PA -- and the
'intelligent design' movement generally -- claim that their goal is NOT to
get (Christian) religion into science classes, it's about getting
competing ideas into the curriculum.
Why then, did they hire the Thomas More center to be their
lawyers in the Dover case?
"Our purpose is to be the sword and shield for people of
faith, providing legal representation without charge to defend
and protect Christians and their religious beliefs in the public
square. ... "
This is quite easy.
Dance, monkey, dance.
Post by rojon
It isn't against the law for Christians to support ID in classrooms
since Christians believe an Intelligent God created the universe.
Inversely, there is nothing wrong is an ID advocate who maybe does not
believe in the Christian God to allow them to fund and or defend ID
since they are aligned. In fact, this cooperation even substantiates
the ID claim to not promote the Christian religion in classrooms..
The ID movement (fronted by the Discovery Institute in Seattle)
goes out of its way to distance itself, in its
for-public-consumption statements at least, from Christianity,
and to specifically disclaim that it is promoting religion.
Privately, of course, its founding and its continued
reason for existing in the public square,
is inextricable from Christianity. So why the
facade? Is it perhaps because previous attempts
to promote their antimaterialist beliefs from a more
honest standpoint simply didn't fly in the courts?
Post by rojon
In fact, this cooperation even substantiates
the ID claim to not promote the Christian religion in classrooms..
So, using a legal team whose express reason for existing is
to 'protect Christians and their religious beliefs in the public square'
is actually evidence that ID is NOT in any way about promoting
Christian beliefs in the public square. Of course!

Either <blank stare> or 'LMAO' seems to be called for here.

Special pleading and logic-torturing at this level of pathetic reality-denial,
is indeed rare. Bravo. You've outdone yourself. Eurasia has ALWAYS
been at war with Eastasia!
--
-S
"The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing stupidity of religious
fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow
rojon
2005-11-02 21:56:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
It isn't against the law for Christians to support ID in classrooms
since Christians believe an Intelligent God created the universe.
Inversely, there is nothing wrong is an ID advocate who maybe does not
believe in the Christian God to allow them to fund and or defend ID
since they are aligned. In fact, this cooperation even substantiates
the ID claim to not promote the Christian religion in classrooms..
The ID movement (fronted by the Discovery Institute in Seattle)
goes out of its way to distance itself, in its
for-public-consumption statements at least, from Christianity,
and to specifically disclaim that it is promoting religion.
Privately, of course, its founding and its continued
reason for existing in the public square,
is inextricable from Christianity. So why the
facade? Is it perhaps because previous attempts
to promote their antimaterialist beliefs from a more
honest standpoint simply didn't fly in the courts?
The ID movement should be distanced from Christianity because although
it shares many beliefs with Christianity, it is a separate thing.
Christians admit this, ID'rs admit this. Where is the deception?
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
In fact, this cooperation even substantiates
the ID claim to not promote the Christian religion in classrooms..
So, using a legal team whose express reason for existing is
to 'protect Christians and their religious beliefs in the public square'
is actually evidence that ID is NOT in any way about promoting
Christian beliefs in the public square. Of course!
Sounds like this legal team should be well versed in fighting against
the kind of discrimination that would overlap both IDologies.
Post by Steven Sullivan
Either <blank stare> or 'LMAO' seems to be called for here.
I understand your confusion.
Post by Steven Sullivan
Special pleading and logic-torturing at this level of pathetic reality-denial,
is indeed rare. Bravo. You've outdone yourself. Eurasia has ALWAYS
been at war with Eastasia!
There is no deception here. You're just having a hard time swallowing
it.
Steven Sullivan
2005-11-02 22:25:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
It isn't against the law for Christians to support ID in classrooms
since Christians believe an Intelligent God created the universe.
Inversely, there is nothing wrong is an ID advocate who maybe does not
believe in the Christian God to allow them to fund and or defend ID
since they are aligned. In fact, this cooperation even substantiates
the ID claim to not promote the Christian religion in classrooms..
The ID movement (fronted by the Discovery Institute in Seattle)
goes out of its way to distance itself, in its
for-public-consumption statements at least, from Christianity,
and to specifically disclaim that it is promoting religion.
Privately, of course, its founding and its continued
reason for existing in the public square,
is inextricable from Christianity. So why the
facade? Is it perhaps because previous attempts
to promote their antimaterialist beliefs from a more
honest standpoint simply didn't fly in the courts?
The ID movement should be distanced from Christianity because although
it shares many beliefs with Christianity, it is a separate thing.
Christians admit this, ID'rs admit this. Where is the deception?
The deception is...it's *not* a separate thing.
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
In fact, this cooperation even substantiates
the ID claim to not promote the Christian religion in classrooms..
So, using a legal team whose express reason for existing is
to 'protect Christians and their religious beliefs in the public square'
is actually evidence that ID is NOT in any way about promoting
Christian beliefs in the public square. Of course!
Sounds like this legal team should be well versed in fighting against
the kind of discrimination that would overlap both IDologies.
LOL. Yeah, *sounds like that*.
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
Either <blank stare> or 'LMAO' seems to be called for here.
I understand your confusion.
Post by Steven Sullivan
Special pleading and logic-torturing at this level of pathetic reality-denial,
is indeed rare. Bravo. You've outdone yourself. Eurasia has ALWAYS
been at war with Eastasia!
There is no deception here. You're just having a hard time swallowing
it.
Whereas you've gulped the, er, *kool aid* with you usual enthusiasm.
--
-S
"The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing stupidity of religious
fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow
Robert Seeberger
2005-11-03 00:30:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
It isn't against the law for Christians to support ID in classrooms
since Christians believe an Intelligent God created the universe.
Inversely, there is nothing wrong is an ID advocate who maybe does not
believe in the Christian God to allow them to fund and or defend ID
since they are aligned. In fact, this cooperation even substantiates
the ID claim to not promote the Christian religion in classrooms..
The ID movement (fronted by the Discovery Institute in Seattle)
goes out of its way to distance itself, in its
for-public-consumption statements at least, from Christianity,
and to specifically disclaim that it is promoting religion.
Privately, of course, its founding and its continued
reason for existing in the public square,
is inextricable from Christianity. So why the
facade? Is it perhaps because previous attempts
to promote their antimaterialist beliefs from a more
honest standpoint simply didn't fly in the courts?
The ID movement should be distanced from Christianity because although
it shares many beliefs with Christianity, it is a separate thing.
Christians admit this, ID'rs admit this. Where is the deception?
The deception is...it's *not* a separate thing.
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
In fact, this cooperation even substantiates
the ID claim to not promote the Christian religion in classrooms..
So, using a legal team whose express reason for existing is
to 'protect Christians and their religious beliefs in the public square'
is actually evidence that ID is NOT in any way about promoting
Christian beliefs in the public square. Of course!
Sounds like this legal team should be well versed in fighting against
the kind of discrimination that would overlap both IDologies.
LOL. Yeah, *sounds like that*.
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
Either <blank stare> or 'LMAO' seems to be called for here.
I understand your confusion.
Post by Steven Sullivan
Special pleading and logic-torturing at this level of pathetic reality-denial,
is indeed rare. Bravo. You've outdone yourself. Eurasia has ALWAYS
been at war with Eastasia!
There is no deception here. You're just having a hard time swallowing
it.
Whereas you've gulped the, er, *kool aid* with you usual enthusiasm.
http://abstractfactory.blogspot.com/2005/10/only-debate-on-intelligent-design-that.html


The only debate on Intelligent Design that is worthy of its subject
Moderator: We're here today to debate the hot new topic, evolution versus
Intelligent Des---

(Scientist pulls out baseball bat.)

Moderator: Hey, what are you doing?

(Scientist breaks Intelligent Design advocate's kneecap.)

Intelligent Design advocate: YEAAARRRRGGGHHHH! YOU BROKE MY KNEECAP!

Scientist: Perhaps it only appears that I broke your kneecap. Certainly, all
the evidence points to the hypothesis I broke your kneecap. For example,
your kneecap is broken; it appears to be a fresh wound; and I am holding a
baseball bat, which is spattered with your blood. However, a mere
preponderance of evidence doesn't mean anything. Perhaps your kneecap was
designed that way. Certainly, there are some features of the current
situation that are inexplicable according to the "naturalistic" explanation
you have just advanced, such as the exact contours of the excruciating pain
that you are experiencing right now.

Intelligent Design advocate: AAAAH! THE PAIN!

Scientist: Frankly, I personally find it completely implausible that the
random actions of a scientist such as myself could cause pain of this
particular kind. I have no precise explanation for why I find this
hypothesis implausible --- it just is. Your knee must have been designed
that way!

Intelligent Design advocate: YOU BASTARD! YOU KNOW YOU DID IT!

Scientist: I surely do not. How can we know anything for certain? Frankly, I
think we should expose people to all points of view. Furthermore, you should
really re-examine whether your hypothesis is scientific at all: the breaking
of your kneecap happened in the past, so we can't rewind and run it over
again, like a laboratory experiment. Even if we could, it wouldn't prove
that I broke your kneecap the previous time. Plus, let's not even get into
the fact that the entire universe might have just popped into existence
right before I said this sentence, with all the evidence of my alleged
kneecap-breaking already pre-formed.

Intelligent Design advocate: That's a load of bullshit sophistry! Get me a
doctor and a lawyer, not necessarily in that order, and we'll see how that
plays in court!

Scientist (turning to audience): And so we see, ladies and gentlemen, when
push comes to shove, advocates of Intelligent Design do not actually believe
any of the arguments that they profess to believe. When it comes to matters
that hit home, they prefer evidence, the scientific method, testable
hypotheses, and naturalistic explanations. In fact, they strongly privilege
naturalistic explanations over supernatural hocus-pocus or metaphysical
wankery. It is only within the reality-distortion field of their ideological
crusade that they give credence to the flimsy, ridiculous arguments which we
so commonly see on display. I must confess, it kind of felt good, for once,
to be the one spouting free-form bullshit; it's so terribly easy and
relaxing, compared to marshaling rigorous arguments backed up by empirical
evidence. But I fear that if I were to continue, then it would be
habit-forming, and bad for my soul. Therefore, I bid you adieu.



xponent

Designs On Intelligence Purported Maru

rob
Quintillionth Quaff
2005-11-03 00:42:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Seeberger
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
It isn't against the law for Christians to support ID in classrooms
since Christians believe an Intelligent God created the universe.
Inversely, there is nothing wrong is an ID advocate who maybe does not
believe in the Christian God to allow them to fund and or defend ID
since they are aligned. In fact, this cooperation even substantiates
the ID claim to not promote the Christian religion in classrooms..
The ID movement (fronted by the Discovery Institute in Seattle)
goes out of its way to distance itself, in its
for-public-consumption statements at least, from Christianity,
and to specifically disclaim that it is promoting religion.
Privately, of course, its founding and its continued
reason for existing in the public square,
is inextricable from Christianity. So why the
facade? Is it perhaps because previous attempts
to promote their antimaterialist beliefs from a more
honest standpoint simply didn't fly in the courts?
The ID movement should be distanced from Christianity because although
it shares many beliefs with Christianity, it is a separate thing.
Christians admit this, ID'rs admit this. Where is the deception?
The deception is...it's *not* a separate thing.
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
In fact, this cooperation even substantiates
the ID claim to not promote the Christian religion in classrooms..
So, using a legal team whose express reason for existing is
to 'protect Christians and their religious beliefs in the public square'
is actually evidence that ID is NOT in any way about promoting
Christian beliefs in the public square. Of course!
Sounds like this legal team should be well versed in fighting against
the kind of discrimination that would overlap both IDologies.
LOL. Yeah, *sounds like that*.
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
Either <blank stare> or 'LMAO' seems to be called for here.
I understand your confusion.
Post by Steven Sullivan
Special pleading and logic-torturing at this level of pathetic reality-denial,
is indeed rare. Bravo. You've outdone yourself. Eurasia has ALWAYS
been at war with Eastasia!
There is no deception here. You're just having a hard time swallowing
it.
Whereas you've gulped the, er, *kool aid* with you usual enthusiasm.
http://abstractfactory.blogspot.com/2005/10/only-debate-on-intelligent-design-that.html
The only debate on Intelligent Design that is worthy of its subject
Moderator: We're here today to debate the hot new topic, evolution versus
Intelligent Des---
(Scientist pulls out baseball bat.)
Moderator: Hey, what are you doing?
(Scientist breaks Intelligent Design advocate's kneecap.)
Intelligent Design advocate: YEAAARRRRGGGHHHH! YOU BROKE MY KNEECAP!
Scientist: Perhaps it only appears that I broke your kneecap. Certainly,
all the evidence points to the hypothesis I broke your kneecap. For
example, your kneecap is broken; it appears to be a fresh wound; and I am
holding a baseball bat, which is spattered with your blood. However, a
mere preponderance of evidence doesn't mean anything. Perhaps your kneecap
was designed that way. Certainly, there are some features of the current
situation that are inexplicable according to the "naturalistic"
explanation you have just advanced, such as the exact contours of the
excruciating pain that you are experiencing right now.
Intelligent Design advocate: AAAAH! THE PAIN!
Scientist: Frankly, I personally find it completely implausible that the
random actions of a scientist such as myself could cause pain of this
particular kind. I have no precise explanation for why I find this
hypothesis implausible --- it just is. Your knee must have been designed
that way!
Intelligent Design advocate: YOU BASTARD! YOU KNOW YOU DID IT!
Scientist: I surely do not. How can we know anything for certain? Frankly,
I think we should expose people to all points of view. Furthermore, you
should really re-examine whether your hypothesis is scientific at all: the
breaking of your kneecap happened in the past, so we can't rewind and run
it over again, like a laboratory experiment. Even if we could, it wouldn't
prove that I broke your kneecap the previous time. Plus, let's not even
get into the fact that the entire universe might have just popped into
existence right before I said this sentence, with all the evidence of my
alleged kneecap-breaking already pre-formed.
Intelligent Design advocate: That's a load of bullshit sophistry! Get me a
doctor and a lawyer, not necessarily in that order, and we'll see how that
plays in court!
Scientist (turning to audience): And so we see, ladies and gentlemen, when
push comes to shove, advocates of Intelligent Design do not actually
believe any of the arguments that they profess to believe. When it comes
to matters that hit home, they prefer evidence, the scientific method,
testable hypotheses, and naturalistic explanations. In fact, they strongly
privilege naturalistic explanations over supernatural hocus-pocus or
metaphysical wankery. It is only within the reality-distortion field of
their ideological crusade that they give credence to the flimsy,
ridiculous arguments which we so commonly see on display. I must confess,
it kind of felt good, for once, to be the one spouting free-form bullshit;
it's so terribly easy and relaxing, compared to marshaling rigorous
arguments backed up by empirical evidence. But I fear that if I were to
continue, then it would be habit-forming, and bad for my soul. Therefore,
I bid you adieu.
xponent
Designs On Intelligence Purported Maru
rob
Even as drunk as I am at this moment I know the above is, shall I say poop!

Q "Anyone got a pooper-scooper?" Q
Steven Sullivan
2005-11-03 02:58:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Seeberger
http://abstractfactory.blogspot.com/2005/10/only-debate-on-intelligent-design-that.html
<snip> nicely done, centurion

next up: we attempt to convince Rojo that that thing plainly on his face is, in
fact, his *nose*.

-S 'with egg on top" Sullivan
Mike Smith
2005-11-03 18:35:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Seeberger
http://abstractfactory.blogspot.com/2005/10/only-debate-on-intelligent-design-that.html
Fuckin' LOL.

--
Mike Smith
rojon
2005-11-03 04:19:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
It isn't against the law for Christians to support ID in classrooms
since Christians believe an Intelligent God created the universe.
Inversely, there is nothing wrong is an ID advocate who maybe does not
believe in the Christian God to allow them to fund and or defend ID
since they are aligned. In fact, this cooperation even substantiates
the ID claim to not promote the Christian religion in classrooms..
The ID movement (fronted by the Discovery Institute in Seattle)
goes out of its way to distance itself, in its
for-public-consumption statements at least, from Christianity,
and to specifically disclaim that it is promoting religion.
Privately, of course, its founding and its continued
reason for existing in the public square,
is inextricable from Christianity. So why the
facade? Is it perhaps because previous attempts
to promote their antimaterialist beliefs from a more
honest standpoint simply didn't fly in the courts?
The ID movement should be distanced from Christianity because although
it shares many beliefs with Christianity, it is a separate thing.
Christians admit this, ID'rs admit this. Where is the deception?
The deception is...it's *not* a separate thing.
There is no deception. ID provides a way to remove religions from the
question of whether we are designed.

Actually the deception here is that your problem is that you don't like
that the question can be raised free of religion. You can spout all you
like, but you can't change this.
Steven Sullivan
2005-11-03 05:39:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
It isn't against the law for Christians to support ID in classrooms
since Christians believe an Intelligent God created the universe.
Inversely, there is nothing wrong is an ID advocate who maybe does not
believe in the Christian God to allow them to fund and or defend ID
since they are aligned. In fact, this cooperation even substantiates
the ID claim to not promote the Christian religion in classrooms..
The ID movement (fronted by the Discovery Institute in Seattle)
goes out of its way to distance itself, in its
for-public-consumption statements at least, from Christianity,
and to specifically disclaim that it is promoting religion.
Privately, of course, its founding and its continued
reason for existing in the public square,
is inextricable from Christianity. So why the
facade? Is it perhaps because previous attempts
to promote their antimaterialist beliefs from a more
honest standpoint simply didn't fly in the courts?
The ID movement should be distanced from Christianity because although
it shares many beliefs with Christianity, it is a separate thing.
Christians admit this, ID'rs admit this. Where is the deception?
The deception is...it's *not* a separate thing.
There is no deception. ID provides a way to remove religions from the
question of whether we are designed.
It *could*...but not by the people currently touting ID...but then again,
once you accept the existence of a 'designer', you've already accepted
the idea that there can be a designer who isn;t designed. I think
those are called 'gods'.
Post by rojon
Actually the deception here is that your problem is that you don't like > that the question
can be raised free of religion. You can spout all you > like, but you can't change this.

But the question isn't *really* being raised free of religion by the Discovery Institute or
the plaintiffs in Dover. Their motivation is entirely religious, as they *used to* admit
publicly, but now do so mainly amongst themselves...unless foreced 'fess up by a
prosecuting lawyer...or a scientist.


-- -S "The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing stupidity of
religious fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow
Peter
2005-11-03 06:45:23 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 05:39:07 +0000 (UTC), Steven Sullivan
Post by Steven Sullivan
It *could*...but not by the people currently touting ID...but then again,
once you accept the existence of a 'designer', you've already accepted
the idea that there can be a designer who isn;t designed. I think
those are called 'gods'.
Well, they could be alien species
Steven Sullivan
2005-11-03 16:48:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter
On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 05:39:07 +0000 (UTC), Steven Sullivan
Post by Steven Sullivan
It *could*...but not by the people currently touting ID...but then again,
once you accept the existence of a 'designer', you've already accepted
the idea that there can be a designer who isn;t designed. I think
those are called 'gods'.
Well, they could be alien species
sure, but who designed *them*?
--
-S
"The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing stupidity of religious
fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow
rojon
2005-11-03 18:17:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Sullivan
the question isn't *really* being raised free of religion by the Discovery Institute or
the plaintiffs in Dover. Their motivation is entirely religious
You are confusing motivation with the actual question at hand. There is
no problem with their having a religious motivation, if the question
itself can be raised free of religious entaglements, it should be.
Post by Steven Sullivan
as they *used to* admit
publicly, but now do so mainly amongst themselves...unless foreced 'fess up by a
prosecuting lawyer...or a scientist.
Lawyers often try to muddy the issue if it helps them win a point by
confusion. I don't blame ID'rs for keep religion out of the subject.
u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
2005-11-03 13:43:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
There is no deception. ID provides a way to remove religions from the
question of whether we are designed.
Actually the deception here is that your problem is that you don't like
that the question can be raised free of religion. You can spout all you
like, but you can't change this.
We seek to understand the diversity of life on Earth (including
ourselves). ID proposes that the answer is that living organisms were
designed by an intelligent entity. That's not much of an explanation
because it leaves unanswered the obvious question: from where did that
intelligent entity come? Religion has an answer (God and God, being
God, wasn't created -- He just Is), but you're saying that ID is
religion-free. OK, so what's the non-religious explanation within ID:
where did the first intelligent entity come from, the one who designed
us?
--
Henry
rojon
2005-11-03 18:37:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
you're saying that ID is
where did the first intelligent entity come from, the one who designed
us?
good question
but the lack of an answer doesn't remove the question, does it?
u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
2005-11-04 00:11:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
where did the first intelligent entity come from, the one who designed us?
good question
but the lack of an answer doesn't remove the question, does it?
If ID isn't an answer, it is but a question, then what precisely does
it offer? ID claims to be an alternative theory to explain the
diversity of live on Earth, but you admit here that it doesn't actually
offer an explanation. Good, we're agreed, ID doesn't explain the
diversity of life on Earth.
--
Henry
DAVID RHEAULT
2005-11-03 23:35:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
We seek to understand the diversity of life on Earth (including
ourselves). ID proposes that the answer is that living organisms were
designed by an intelligent entity. That's not much of an explanation
because it leaves unanswered the obvious question: from where did that
intelligent entity come? Religion has an answer (God and God, being
God, wasn't created -- He just Is), but you're saying that ID is
where did the first intelligent entity come from, the one who designed
us?
Some proponents of ID might be Pantheists. They believe the sum total of
observable creation is the same as the creator. That which is created
creates. That which is is. That, that is.

Some leave the question such as "who created the universe" unanswered and
since no person has ever been able to discover the answer, they believe it
is unknowable. They believe that thinking about the future or the past
creates anxiety (or desire, the stepchild of anxiety) and that humans are at
their best and most stable whilst living in the present.


dcr
Mike Smith
2005-11-03 18:34:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
There is no deception. ID provides a way to remove religions from the
question of whether we are designed.
Actually the deception here is that your problem is that you don't like
that the question can be raised free of religion. You can spout all you
like, but you can't change this.
Please explain how ID, i.e. the notion that life was created by God, is
an argument "free of religion".

--
Mike Smith
rojon
2005-11-03 18:48:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Smith
Post by rojon
There is no deception. ID provides a way to remove religions from the
question of whether we are designed.
Actually the deception here is that your problem is that you don't like
that the question can be raised free of religion. You can spout all you
like, but you can't change this.
Please explain how ID, i.e. the notion that life was created by God, is
an argument "free of religion".
This is almost sad. How many times can I say the obvious. ID claims
that the order of the universe suggests an intelligent designer. It is
a religion free observation. You have such a history with battling the
religious that you can't wrap your head around the subject san
religious implications. It is basically looking at only one stage of a
question without making assumption about what other stages might
follow.
Loz
2005-11-03 21:08:26 UTC
Permalink
On 3 Nov 2005 10:48:32 -0800, the trouble really kicked off when
Post by rojon
Post by Mike Smith
Post by rojon
There is no deception. ID provides a way to remove religions from the
question of whether we are designed.
Actually the deception here is that your problem is that you don't like
that the question can be raised free of religion. You can spout all you
like, but you can't change this.
Please explain how ID, i.e. the notion that life was created by God, is
an argument "free of religion".
This is almost sad. How many times can I say the obvious. ID claims
that the order of the universe suggests an intelligent designer. It is
a religion free observation. You have such a history with battling the
religious that you can't wrap your head around the subject san
religious implications. It is basically looking at only one stage of a
question without making assumption about what other stages might
follow.
I see - an Intelligent Designer, whom no one will equate with the idea
of "God".
"You see, there's this omnipotent being, who designed all life ... no,
no, we don't *worship* him, he's not like a god or anything. No
seriously, he isn't God, he's just a powerful being who created all
life in the universe ... no, you can't actually see him, but he's
real, trust me ..."

Uh huh.
--
Loz {:-)>
"Holy self-righteous cluelessness, Batman." - Rob Allen
rojon
2005-11-03 22:03:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Loz
I see - an Intelligent Designer, whom no one will equate with the idea
of "God".
"You see, there's this omnipotent being, who designed all life ... no,
no, we don't *worship* him, he's not like a god or anything. No
seriously, he isn't God, he's just a powerful being who created all
life in the universe ... no, you can't actually see him, but he's
real, trust me ..."
Uh huh.
If you equate an specific concept of who you feel that designer might
be, that is your bag man. Don't lay that jive on me.
Loz
2005-11-03 22:14:42 UTC
Permalink
On 3 Nov 2005 14:03:44 -0800, the trouble really kicked off when
Post by rojon
Post by Loz
I see - an Intelligent Designer, whom no one will equate with the idea
of "God".
"You see, there's this omnipotent being, who designed all life ... no,
no, we don't *worship* him, he's not like a god or anything. No
seriously, he isn't God, he's just a powerful being who created all
life in the universe ... no, you can't actually see him, but he's
real, trust me ..."
Uh huh.
If you equate an specific concept of who you feel that designer might
be, that is your bag man. Don't lay that jive on me.
Rojo, you're getting delusions of grandeur here. It's not *you* we're
worried about, it's the guys with the (barely) hidden agenda with whom
we have an issue.

You see the point don't you? You can't preach about the Christian God
in schools, but maybe you can teach about an ID. Then, a few years
down the line, who's going to worry whether you call him "Intelligent
Designer" or "God", what's the difference?

Does the expression "thin end of the wedge" hold any meaning for you?
You understand the principle, right?
--
Loz {:-)>
"Honk if your mental patient is exerting herself"
Mike Smith
2005-11-03 23:34:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
Post by Loz
I see - an Intelligent Designer, whom no one will equate with the idea
of "God".
"You see, there's this omnipotent being, who designed all life ... no,
no, we don't *worship* him, he's not like a god or anything. No
seriously, he isn't God, he's just a powerful being who created all
life in the universe ... no, you can't actually see him, but he's
real, trust me ..."
Uh huh.
If you equate an specific concept of who you feel that designer might
be, that is your bag man. Don't lay that jive on me.
You're being ridiculous. You know perfectly well that the "intelligent
designer" is just a harmless, non-religious-*sounding* way of saying
"God", and that that's what folks like the ID-in-schools proponents in
Kansas are *really* thinking.

--
Mike Smith
Jeremiah Harbottle
2005-11-04 00:26:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Loz
I see - an Intelligent Designer, whom no one will equate with the idea
of "God".
"You see, there's this omnipotent being, who designed all life ... no,
no, we don't *worship* him, he's not like a god or anything. No
seriously, he isn't God, he's just a powerful being who created all
life in the universe ... no, you can't actually see him, but he's
real, trust me ..."
Uh huh.
ID is absolute bollocks, to be blunt.

The argument is about whether it is scientific and should be taught
alongside evolution.

ID isn't scientific in the slightest, and the "inventor" of ID (Behe) was
recently slaughtered in court when he tried to say it _was_ scientific.

The whole theory has a great get out clause - "We accept Evolution in some
cases". So any time evolution is used to prove something, the ID theory
accepts that as being part of ID.

Behe's stuff about irreducible complexity can quite easily be shown to be
garbage as well. Many people have already highlighting errors and
inconsistencies in his work.
Stephen Bruun
2005-11-04 00:57:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
There is no deception. ID provides a way to remove religions from the
question of whether we are designed.
Actually the deception here is that your problem is that you don't like
that the question can be raised free of religion. You can spout all you
like, but you can't change this.
If ID does not involve religion, then why don't we see a cross-section of
religious (and non-religious) viewpoints represented within the ID movement,
the way that we do in mainstream evolutionary biology? All the big names in
ID "theory," when they're before a like-minded audience, make it quite clear
that they believe the "designer" to be the biblical God. They claim that
the designer could be an extraterrestrial civilization, but this is
disingenuous because it does not answer the question of where *they* came
from; it merely pushes the question of ultimate origins to a different
planet.

There is nothing inherently atheistic about evolution, which is why
scientists of many faiths accept its principles. If there is nothing
inherently religious about intelligent design, we should expect to see a
fair number of atheists positing the existence of some non-divine designer.
Where are they?
--
To reply, get rid of THAT THING
Quintillionth Quaff
2005-11-02 22:05:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
The anti-evolution forces currently on trial in Dover, PA -- and the
'intelligent design' movement generally -- claim that their goal is NOT to
get (Christian) religion into science classes, it's about getting
competing ideas into the curriculum.
Why then, did they hire the Thomas More center to be their
lawyers in the Dover case?
"Our purpose is to be the sword and shield for people of
faith, providing legal representation without charge to defend
and protect Christians and their religious beliefs in the public
square. ... "
This is quite easy.
Dance, monkey, dance.
Post by rojon
It isn't against the law for Christians to support ID in classrooms
since Christians believe an Intelligent God created the universe.
Inversely, there is nothing wrong is an ID advocate who maybe does not
believe in the Christian God to allow them to fund and or defend ID
since they are aligned. In fact, this cooperation even substantiates
the ID claim to not promote the Christian religion in classrooms..
The ID movement (fronted by the Discovery Institute in Seattle)
goes out of its way to distance itself, in its
for-public-consumption statements at least, from Christianity,
and to specifically disclaim that it is promoting religion.
Privately, of course, its founding and its continued
reason for existing in the public square,
is inextricable from Christianity. So why the
facade? Is it perhaps because previous attempts
to promote their antimaterialist beliefs from a more
honest standpoint simply didn't fly in the courts?
Post by rojon
In fact, this cooperation even substantiates
the ID claim to not promote the Christian religion in classrooms..
So, using a legal team whose express reason for existing is
to 'protect Christians and their religious beliefs in the public square'
is actually evidence that ID is NOT in any way about promoting
Christian beliefs in the public square. Of course!
Either <blank stare> or 'LMAO' seems to be called for here.
Special pleading and logic-torturing at this level of pathetic
reality-denial,
is indeed rare. Bravo. You've outdone yourself. Eurasia has ALWAYS
been at war with Eastasia!
--
-S
"The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing
stupidity of religious
fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow
You could always ask to be excused from science class when the 90 second ID
statement is read if your so afraid to here an alternate veiwpoint.

Q "I believe." Q

"All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. All these
aspirations are directed toward ennobling man's life, lifting it from the
sphere of mere physical existence and leading the individual towards
freedom." - Albert Einstein
A.M. Rush
2005-11-02 22:21:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
You could always ask to be excused from science class when the 90 second ID
statement is read if your so afraid to here an alternate veiwpoint.
Except there's that pesky separation-of-church-and-state thingy.

You want your kids to learn about creationism, put 'em in a private
religious school or take 'em to church. Sheesh.
u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
2005-11-02 23:03:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by A.M. Rush
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
You could always ask to be excused from science class when the 90 second ID
statement is read if your so afraid to here an alternate veiwpoint.
Except there's that pesky separation-of-church-and-state thingy.
You want your kids to learn about creationism, put 'em in a private
religious school or take 'em to church. Sheesh.
The UK doesn't have a constitutional separation of church and state. In
fact, we have an established church, a constituitional association of
church and state! However, schools here don't teach Creationism or ID.
You know why not? Because they're errant nonsense that have nothing to
do with science and are rejected by the vast majority of Christians
over here too.

You don't need constitutional reasons to reject Creationism: the basic
principle that we should teach our kids what's true should be more than
enough reason! If you want your kids to learn about Creationism, you're
a fool.
--
Henry
Quintillionth Quaff
2005-11-03 00:11:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
Post by A.M. Rush
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
You could always ask to be excused from science class when the 90 second ID
statement is read if your so afraid to here an alternate veiwpoint.
Except there's that pesky separation-of-church-and-state thingy.
You want your kids to learn about creationism, put 'em in a private
religious school or take 'em to church. Sheesh.
The UK doesn't have a constitutional separation of church and state. In
fact, we have an established church, a constituitional association of
church and state! However, schools here don't teach Creationism or ID.
You know why not? Because they're errant nonsense that have nothing to
do with science and are rejected by the vast majority of Christians
over here too.
You don't need constitutional reasons to reject Creationism: the basic
principle that we should teach our kids what's true should be more than
enough reason! If you want your kids to learn about Creationism, you're
a fool.
--
Henry
Dont' argue with me when you haven't got a clue as to what the issue is.


'Intelligent design' plaintiffs are over-reacting


In pondering the federal trial involving 11 parents, the ACLU, and Americans
United for the Separation of Church and State vs. the Dover Area School
Board, I have to wonder where the plaintiffs were when I was studying
introductory biology at my state-sponsored community college just over a
decade ago. Chapter I of our general biology textbook introduced us to the
concept of ''intelligent design'' and a few other possible theories even as
we embarked on the study of Darwin's theory of evolution.

There were no protests, no lawsuits, and no federal trials, though ours was
a community college supported by state and federal tax dollars and funds
from sponsoring Lehigh Valley school districts. To tell the truth, among all
the controversy and hype over the developing battle between evolutionists
and the encroaching intelligent design miscreants, the course itself was a
bit anticlimactic. Studying Darwin's theory of evolution back then, preceded
by the advice of the text's authors and our professor on the theory of
intelligent design, was uncontroversial, which makes Dover's present
controversy seem like ''much ado about nothing.''

Personally, I'm firmly in the intelligent design camp, and was so before
attending that freshman biology class. Thus, it fascinated me to confirm,
through scientific study, that there was no dilemma whatsoever balancing my
reasoned consideration of intelligent design and studying traditional
evolution theory. I could see quite plainly that there are Grand
Canyon-sized gaps in the theory of evolution that require leaps of faith to
accept its inferences.

Despite all the advances in scientific understanding and technology in a
century and a half since ''Origin of the Species,'' Darwin's theory remains
plausible, yet short of being proved. Rather than discourage my leanings
toward intelligent design, studying the theory of evolution and the
scientific complexities evident in the natural world did nothing but
crystallize the inferences I observed, supporting the prospect of
intelligent design evident in nature.

When some in the scientific community object to even mouthing the words
''intelligent design'' anywhere near a science classroom, I've got to shrug
my shoulders and ask, ''Where's the beef?'' According to press reports,
Eugenie Scott, executive director of the Center for Science Education, a
supporter of the Dover lawsuit, states the goal of the plaintiffs is to show
that the schools' decision to include an intelligent design statement in the
science curriculum is a violation of the U.S. Constitution. To me, that goal
is an unreachable stretch.

Dover's statement does several things in its effort to acknowledge the
prospect of intelligent design. First, it states that in reference to
Darwinian evolution, ''Gaps in the theory exist for which there is no
evidence.'' It also states, ''Intelligent design is an explanation of the
origin of life that differs from Darwin's view.'' Both of these elements
match my experiences in BIO 110 at my local community college. Then, Dover's
statement refers students to ''Of Pandas and People,'' a supplementary text
''available for students who might be interested in gaining an understanding
of what intelligent design actually involves.''

I have not never read ''Of Pandas and People,'' so I have no basis to
comment on either its scientific validity or proselytizing potential.
However, it seems that if Dover's intelligent design statement violates the
U.S. Constitution through inferences to the existence of an intelligent
designer, then official acknowledgments of our nation's Declaration of
Independence, preambled by references to the ''Laws of Nature and of
Nature's God'' and to people being ''endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable rights,'' should be a constitutional outrage by comparison.

In my view, the plaintiffs in the Dover case look a whole lot like the
prosecutors in the ''monkey'' trial of Tennessee v. Scopes back in 1925.
Dover's plaintiffs, like the Scopes prosecutors, represent a
traditionalistic community gripped with irrational fears in realizing the
unquestioned reign of their valued beliefs is threatened by an invasion of
questioning intellect. In both cases, traditionalistic educators, both then
and now, show an obsession with teaching their students what to think, while
spurning a duty to teach them how to think. In either case, it's a
disservice.

Donald Hoffman is a freelance columnist living in Fountain Hill. His e-mail
address is ***@enter.net
Chris Jemmett
2005-11-03 01:10:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
Post by A.M. Rush
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
You could always ask to be excused from science class when the 90 second ID
statement is read if your so afraid to here an alternate veiwpoint.
Except there's that pesky separation-of-church-and-state thingy.
You want your kids to learn about creationism, put 'em in a private
religious school or take 'em to church. Sheesh.
The UK doesn't have a constitutional separation of church and state. In
fact, we have an established church, a constituitional association of
church and state! However, schools here don't teach Creationism or ID.
You know why not? Because they're errant nonsense that have nothing to
do with science and are rejected by the vast majority of Christians
over here too.
You don't need constitutional reasons to reject Creationism: the basic
principle that we should teach our kids what's true should be more than
enough reason! If you want your kids to learn about Creationism, you're
a fool.
True enough.
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
Dont' argue with me when you haven't got a clue as to what the issue is.
Don't you mean, "don't argue with me when I can't cut and paste someone
elses argument because I have no idea buuuuuuuuuurp... Intejelent
dzine".
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
'Intelligent design' plaintiffs are over-reacting
In pondering the federal trial involving 11 parents, the ACLU, and Americans
United for the Separation of Church and State vs. the Dover Area School
Board, I have to wonder where the plaintiffs were when I was studying
introductory biology at my state-sponsored community college just over a
decade ago. Chapter I of our general biology textbook introduced us to the
concept of ''intelligent design'' and a few other possible theories even as
we embarked on the study of Darwin's theory of evolution.
There were no protests, no lawsuits, and no federal trials, though ours was
a community college supported by state and federal tax dollars and funds
from sponsoring Lehigh Valley school districts. To tell the truth, among all
the controversy and hype over the developing battle between evolutionists
and the encroaching intelligent design miscreants, the course itself was a
bit anticlimactic. Studying Darwin's theory of evolution back then, preceded
by the advice of the text's authors and our professor on the theory of
intelligent design, was uncontroversial, which makes Dover's present
controversy seem like ''much ado about nothing.''
Personally, I'm firmly in the intelligent design camp, and was so before
attending that freshman biology class. Thus, it fascinated me to confirm,
through scientific study, that there was no dilemma whatsoever balancing my
reasoned consideration of intelligent design and studying traditional
evolution theory. I could see quite plainly that there are Grand
Canyon-sized gaps in the theory of evolution that require leaps of faith to
accept its inferences.
Despite all the advances in scientific understanding and technology in a
century and a half since ''Origin of the Species,'' Darwin's theory remains
plausible, yet short of being proved. Rather than discourage my leanings
toward intelligent design, studying the theory of evolution and the
scientific complexities evident in the natural world did nothing but
crystallize the inferences I observed, supporting the prospect of
intelligent design evident in nature.
When some in the scientific community object to even mouthing the words
''intelligent design'' anywhere near a science classroom, I've got to shrug
my shoulders and ask, ''Where's the beef?'' According to press reports,
Eugenie Scott, executive director of the Center for Science Education, a
supporter of the Dover lawsuit, states the goal of the plaintiffs is to show
that the schools' decision to include an intelligent design statement in the
science curriculum is a violation of the U.S. Constitution. To me, that goal
is an unreachable stretch.
Dover's statement does several things in its effort to acknowledge the
prospect of intelligent design. First, it states that in reference to
Darwinian evolution, ''Gaps in the theory exist for which there is no
evidence.'' It also states, ''Intelligent design is an explanation of the
origin of life that differs from Darwin's view.'' Both of these elements
match my experiences in BIO 110 at my local community college. Then, Dover's
statement refers students to ''Of Pandas and People,'' a supplementary text
''available for students who might be interested in gaining an understanding
of what intelligent design actually involves.''
I have not never read ''Of Pandas and People,'' so I have no basis to
comment on either its scientific validity or proselytizing potential.
However, it seems that if Dover's intelligent design statement violates the
U.S. Constitution through inferences to the existence of an intelligent
designer, then official acknowledgments of our nation's Declaration of
Independence, preambled by references to the ''Laws of Nature and of
Nature's God'' and to people being ''endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable rights,'' should be a constitutional outrage by comparison.
In my view, the plaintiffs in the Dover case look a whole lot like the
prosecutors in the ''monkey'' trial of Tennessee v. Scopes back in 1925.
Dover's plaintiffs, like the Scopes prosecutors, represent a
traditionalistic community gripped with irrational fears in realizing the
unquestioned reign of their valued beliefs is threatened by an invasion of
questioning intellect. In both cases, traditionalistic educators, both then
and now, show an obsession with teaching their students what to think, while
spurning a duty to teach them how to think. In either case, it's a
disservice.
Donald Hoffman is a freelance columnist living in Fountain Hill. His e-mail
Steven Sullivan
2005-11-03 03:00:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Jemmett
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
Post by A.M. Rush
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
You could always ask to be excused from science class when the 90 second ID
statement is read if your so afraid to here an alternate veiwpoint.
Except there's that pesky separation-of-church-and-state thingy.
You want your kids to learn about creationism, put 'em in a private
religious school or take 'em to church. Sheesh.
The UK doesn't have a constitutional separation of church and state. In
fact, we have an established church, a constituitional association of
church and state! However, schools here don't teach Creationism or ID.
You know why not? Because they're errant nonsense that have nothing to
do with science and are rejected by the vast majority of Christians
over here too.
You don't need constitutional reasons to reject Creationism: the basic
principle that we should teach our kids what's true should be more than
enough reason! If you want your kids to learn about Creationism, you're
a fool.
True enough.
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
Dont' argue with me when you haven't got a clue as to what the issue is.
Don't you mean, "don't argue with me when I can't cut and paste someone
elses argument because I have no idea buuuuuuuuuurp... Intejelent
dzine".
Is the Quiffy shit-head who styles himself a drunk, still trying to post a rational
argument?

Clearly he believes in miracles.
--
-S "I don't" Sullivan
Quintillionth Quaff
2005-11-03 03:49:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by Chris Jemmett
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
Post by A.M. Rush
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
You could always ask to be excused from science class when the 90 second ID
statement is read if your so afraid to here an alternate veiwpoint.
Except there's that pesky separation-of-church-and-state thingy.
You want your kids to learn about creationism, put 'em in a private
religious school or take 'em to church. Sheesh.
The UK doesn't have a constitutional separation of church and state. In
fact, we have an established church, a constituitional association of
church and state! However, schools here don't teach Creationism or ID.
You know why not? Because they're errant nonsense that have nothing to
do with science and are rejected by the vast majority of Christians
over here too.
You don't need constitutional reasons to reject Creationism: the basic
principle that we should teach our kids what's true should be more than
enough reason! If you want your kids to learn about Creationism, you're
a fool.
True enough.
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
Dont' argue with me when you haven't got a clue as to what the issue is.
Don't you mean, "don't argue with me when I can't cut and paste someone
elses argument because I have no idea buuuuuuuuuurp... Intejelent
dzine".
Is the Quiffy shit-head who styles himself a drunk, still trying to post a rational
argument?
Clearly he believes in miracles.
--
-S "I don't" Sullivan
You should have sig filed,

S "I can't" Sullivan

Q "Hailin' Mary" Q
Quintillionth Quaff
2005-11-03 03:59:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Jemmett
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
Post by A.M. Rush
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
You could always ask to be excused from science class when the 90 second ID
statement is read if your so afraid to here an alternate veiwpoint.
Except there's that pesky separation-of-church-and-state thingy.
You want your kids to learn about creationism, put 'em in a private
religious school or take 'em to church. Sheesh.
The UK doesn't have a constitutional separation of church and state. In
fact, we have an established church, a constituitional association of
church and state! However, schools here don't teach Creationism or ID.
You know why not? Because they're errant nonsense that have nothing to
do with science and are rejected by the vast majority of Christians
over here too.
You don't need constitutional reasons to reject Creationism: the basic
principle that we should teach our kids what's true should be more than
enough reason! If you want your kids to learn about Creationism, you're
a fool.
True enough.
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
Dont' argue with me when you haven't got a clue as to what the issue is.
Don't you mean, "don't argue with me when I can't cut and paste someone
elses argument because I have no idea buuuuuuuuuurp... Intejelent
dzine".
Appears to this drunkin' sot that u ain't got a clue too.
BURP! (if you're gonna burp make it loud - no wimps allowed)
Must be that imported sissy quaffs you pinky finger raisin' metrosexuals get
in a lather over that gives you the wimpy burp.

Q "Yo barkeep you forgot the alfalfa sprouts in my lite yet crispy imported
root vegetable salad" Q
Post by Chris Jemmett
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
'Intelligent design' plaintiffs are over-reacting
In pondering the federal trial involving 11 parents, the ACLU, and Americans
United for the Separation of Church and State vs. the Dover Area School
Board, I have to wonder where the plaintiffs were when I was studying
introductory biology at my state-sponsored community college just over a
decade ago. Chapter I of our general biology textbook introduced us to the
concept of ''intelligent design'' and a few other possible theories even as
we embarked on the study of Darwin's theory of evolution.
There were no protests, no lawsuits, and no federal trials, though ours was
a community college supported by state and federal tax dollars and funds
from sponsoring Lehigh Valley school districts. To tell the truth, among all
the controversy and hype over the developing battle between evolutionists
and the encroaching intelligent design miscreants, the course itself was a
bit anticlimactic. Studying Darwin's theory of evolution back then, preceded
by the advice of the text's authors and our professor on the theory of
intelligent design, was uncontroversial, which makes Dover's present
controversy seem like ''much ado about nothing.''
Personally, I'm firmly in the intelligent design camp, and was so before
attending that freshman biology class. Thus, it fascinated me to confirm,
through scientific study, that there was no dilemma whatsoever balancing my
reasoned consideration of intelligent design and studying traditional
evolution theory. I could see quite plainly that there are Grand
Canyon-sized gaps in the theory of evolution that require leaps of faith to
accept its inferences.
Despite all the advances in scientific understanding and technology in a
century and a half since ''Origin of the Species,'' Darwin's theory remains
plausible, yet short of being proved. Rather than discourage my leanings
toward intelligent design, studying the theory of evolution and the
scientific complexities evident in the natural world did nothing but
crystallize the inferences I observed, supporting the prospect of
intelligent design evident in nature.
When some in the scientific community object to even mouthing the words
''intelligent design'' anywhere near a science classroom, I've got to shrug
my shoulders and ask, ''Where's the beef?'' According to press reports,
Eugenie Scott, executive director of the Center for Science Education, a
supporter of the Dover lawsuit, states the goal of the plaintiffs is to show
that the schools' decision to include an intelligent design statement in the
science curriculum is a violation of the U.S. Constitution. To me, that goal
is an unreachable stretch.
Dover's statement does several things in its effort to acknowledge the
prospect of intelligent design. First, it states that in reference to
Darwinian evolution, ''Gaps in the theory exist for which there is no
evidence.'' It also states, ''Intelligent design is an explanation of the
origin of life that differs from Darwin's view.'' Both of these elements
match my experiences in BIO 110 at my local community college. Then, Dover's
statement refers students to ''Of Pandas and People,'' a supplementary text
''available for students who might be interested in gaining an understanding
of what intelligent design actually involves.''
I have not never read ''Of Pandas and People,'' so I have no basis to
comment on either its scientific validity or proselytizing potential.
However, it seems that if Dover's intelligent design statement violates the
U.S. Constitution through inferences to the existence of an intelligent
designer, then official acknowledgments of our nation's Declaration of
Independence, preambled by references to the ''Laws of Nature and of
Nature's God'' and to people being ''endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable rights,'' should be a constitutional outrage by comparison.
In my view, the plaintiffs in the Dover case look a whole lot like the
prosecutors in the ''monkey'' trial of Tennessee v. Scopes back in 1925.
Dover's plaintiffs, like the Scopes prosecutors, represent a
traditionalistic community gripped with irrational fears in realizing the
unquestioned reign of their valued beliefs is threatened by an invasion of
questioning intellect. In both cases, traditionalistic educators, both then
and now, show an obsession with teaching their students what to think, while
spurning a duty to teach them how to think. In either case, it's a
disservice.
Donald Hoffman is a freelance columnist living in Fountain Hill. His e-mail
u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
2005-11-03 13:05:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
The UK doesn't have a constitutional separation of church and state. In
fact, we have an established church, a constituitional association of
church and state! However, schools here don't teach Creationism or ID.
You know why not? Because they're errant nonsense that have nothing to
do with science and are rejected by the vast majority of Christians
over here too.
You don't need constitutional reasons to reject Creationism: the basic
principle that we should teach our kids what's true should be more than
enough reason! If you want your kids to learn about Creationism, you're
a fool.
Dont' argue with me when you haven't got a clue as to what the issue is.
'Intelligent design' plaintiffs are over-reacting
In pondering the federal trial involving 11 parents, the ACLU, and Americans
United for the Separation of Church and State vs. the Dover Area School
Board,
[...]
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
Donald Hoffman is a freelance columnist living in Fountain Hill. His e-mail
When your car's broken down, do you go see a mechanic or a freelance
columnist? When you're ill, do you see a doctor or a freelance
columnist? When you want to know about the development of different
forms of life on Earth, do you see a biologist or a freelance
columnist? I'm sure Donald Hoffman is a very nice guy, but what strange
logic leads you to believe that what he writes constitutes a convincing
argument about science or, indeed, about theology?
--
Henry
rojon
2005-11-03 18:34:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
When your car's broken down, do you go see a mechanic or a freelance
columnist? When you're ill, do you see a doctor or a freelance
columnist? When you want to know about the development of different
forms of life on Earth, do you see a biologist or a freelance
columnist? I'm sure Donald Hoffman is a very nice guy, but what strange
logic leads you to believe that what he writes constitutes a convincing
argument about science or, indeed, about theology?
Is your point that we would be a fool to listen to your opinion about
evolution if you are not a botanist, zoologists, geologists,
geneticists?
Steven Sullivan
2005-11-03 19:06:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
When your car's broken down, do you go see a mechanic or a freelance
columnist? When you're ill, do you see a doctor or a freelance
columnist? When you want to know about the development of different
forms of life on Earth, do you see a biologist or a freelance
columnist? I'm sure Donald Hoffman is a very nice guy, but what strange
logic leads you to believe that what he writes constitutes a convincing
argument about science or, indeed, about theology?
Is your point that we would be a fool to listen to your opinion about
evolution if you are not a botanist, zoologists, geologists,
geneticists?
You'd be a foll to listen to the opinion of someone who doesn't know
what he's talking about. Which is to say, your 'freelancer'.
--
-S
"The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing stupidity of religious
fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow
Mike Smith
2005-11-03 23:35:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
When your car's broken down, do you go see a mechanic or a freelance
columnist? When you're ill, do you see a doctor or a freelance
columnist? When you want to know about the development of different
forms of life on Earth, do you see a biologist or a freelance
columnist? I'm sure Donald Hoffman is a very nice guy, but what strange
logic leads you to believe that what he writes constitutes a convincing
argument about science or, indeed, about theology?
Is your point that we would be a fool to listen to your opinion about
evolution if you are not a botanist, zoologists, geologists,
geneticists?
When your toilet breaks, do you call a plumber, or a sushi chef?

--
Mike Smith
u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
2005-11-04 00:23:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
When your car's broken down, do you go see a mechanic or a freelance
columnist? When you're ill, do you see a doctor or a freelance
columnist? When you want to know about the development of different
forms of life on Earth, do you see a biologist or a freelance
columnist? I'm sure Donald Hoffman is a very nice guy, but what strange
logic leads you to believe that what he writes constitutes a convincing
argument about science or, indeed, about theology?
Is your point that we would be a fool to listen to your opinion about
evolution if you are not a botanist, zoologists, geologists, geneticists?
It generally helps to listen to people who know what they're talking
about. Is that such a crazy idea? QQ offers an article by a freelance
columnist as if it's the last word on the subject. Well, I wouldn't
describe myself as a botanist, zoologist, geologist or geneticist, but
my first degree was in Natural Sciences, covering three of those.
Others on a.m.y. are better qualified still. The thousands upon
thousands of botanists, zoologists, geologists and geneticists in the
real world would all be good sources of information on this subject and
99% of them will dismiss ID as nonsense.
--
Henry
Quintillionth Quaff
2005-11-03 22:19:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
The UK doesn't have a constitutional separation of church and state. In
fact, we have an established church, a constituitional association of
church and state! However, schools here don't teach Creationism or ID.
You know why not? Because they're errant nonsense that have nothing to
do with science and are rejected by the vast majority of Christians
over here too.
You don't need constitutional reasons to reject Creationism: the basic
principle that we should teach our kids what's true should be more than
enough reason! If you want your kids to learn about Creationism, you're
a fool.
Dont' argue with me when you haven't got a clue as to what the issue is.
'Intelligent design' plaintiffs are over-reacting
In pondering the federal trial involving 11 parents, the ACLU, and Americans
United for the Separation of Church and State vs. the Dover Area School
Board,
[...]
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
Donald Hoffman is a freelance columnist living in Fountain Hill. His e-mail
When your car's broken down, do you go see a mechanic or a freelance
columnist? When you're ill, do you see a doctor or a freelance
columnist? When you want to know about the development of different
forms of life on Earth, do you see a biologist or a freelance
columnist? I'm sure Donald Hoffman is a very nice guy, but what strange
logic leads you to believe that what he writes constitutes a convincing
argument about science or, indeed, about theology?
--
Henry
Henry, I agree with D. Hoffman's statement, "...traditionalistic educators,
both then
and now, show an obsession with teaching their students what to think, while
spurning a duty to teach them how to think.

That's what I see as driving this nonsense. The argument has nothing to do
with Creationism vs. Evolution. Teach both since neither can be prove at
this time. Let the students choose what to believe. As a side note, 85% of
US citizens claim themselves as Christians IIRC. Christians believe in a
God. Christians believe God created Man. All Christians including myself
don't take Genesis literally. Most Christians believe in evolution and even
that Man has evolved. Evolution may have been part of God's design. Who
knows? Who can disprove it? Until then teach both and let the students
choose. Most of the students already believe God crated Man anyway.

QQ
Loz
2005-11-03 22:28:09 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:19:17 -0500, the trouble really kicked off when
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
Henry, I agree with D. Hoffman's statement, "...traditionalistic educators,
both then
and now, show an obsession with teaching their students what to think, while
spurning a duty to teach them how to think.
[blather snipped]

A truly Intelligent Designer would have designed life so that alcohol
would go straight to Quiffy's typing fingers first, and *then* his
head.

Loz {:-)>
xGCU Back to Front
Jeremiah Harbottle
2005-11-04 00:34:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
that Man has evolved. Evolution may have been part of God's design. Who
Nothing as messy as evolution could have been designed. The vast majority of
DNA is junk.
u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
2005-11-04 00:39:51 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
You don't need constitutional reasons to reject Creationism: the basic
principle that we should teach our kids what's true should be more than
enough reason! If you want your kids to learn about Creationism, you're
a fool.
Dont' argue with me when you haven't got a clue as to what the issue is.
'Intelligent design' plaintiffs are over-reacting
In pondering the federal trial involving 11 parents, the ACLU, and Americans United for the
Separation of Church and State vs. the Dover Area School Board,
[...]
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
Donald Hoffman is a freelance columnist living in Fountain Hill. His e-mail
When your car's broken down, do you go see a mechanic or a freelance
columnist? When you're ill, do you see a doctor or a freelance
columnist? When you want to know about the development of different
forms of life on Earth, do you see a biologist or a freelance
columnist? I'm sure Donald Hoffman is a very nice guy, but what strange
logic leads you to believe that what he writes constitutes a convincing
argument about science or, indeed, about theology?
Henry, I agree with D. Hoffman's statement, "...traditionalistic educators,
both then and now, show an obsession with teaching their students what to think, while
spurning a duty to teach them how to think.
Traditionalistic educators teach evolution for the same reason they
teach about the theory of gravity, or the theory of nuclear fusion, or
about the American War of Independence, etc. etc. etc. Because they're
all true. You don't need any conspiracy theories.
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
That's what I see as driving this nonsense. The argument has nothing to do
with Creationism vs. Evolution. Teach both since neither can be prove at
this time. Let the students choose what to believe.
Intelligent Design was largely rejected by philosophers and theologians
by the 18th century. Evolution had been thoroughly proven by the
beginning of the 20th. There is no argument: rather, religious
extremists offer dogma with no connection to the evidence and are
clearly not open to reasoned debate. If that's what people want to
believe, then they are entitled to their beliefs, but don't pretend
this has anything to do with a real debate about how to explain the
diversity of life on Earth.
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
As a side note, 85% of US citizens claim themselves as Christians IIRC. Christians believe in a
God. Christians believe God created Man. All Christians including myself don't take Genesis
literally. Most Christians believe in evolution and even that Man has evolved. Evolution may have
been part of God's design. Who knows? Who can disprove it? Until then teach both and let the
students choose. Most of the students already believe God crated Man anyway.
Belief in God is clearly compatible with the study of science and an
acceptance that evolution is the mechanism by which the diversity of
life on Earth arose. Belief (or non-belief) in God is certainly an
appropriate topic for schools. But let science classes teach science
and religion classes teach religion.
--
Henry
Jeremiah Harbottle
2005-11-04 00:32:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
Personally, I'm firmly in the intelligent design camp, and was so before
attending that freshman biology class. Thus, it fascinated me to confirm,
through scientific study, that there was no dilemma whatsoever balancing
my reasoned consideration of intelligent design and studying traditional
evolution theory. I could see quite plainly that there are Grand
Canyon-sized gaps in the theory of evolution that require leaps of faith
to accept its inferences.
There are no "Canyon sized gaps", just ignorance. People seem to think that
Evolution happens in huge leaps, when in fact it means small changes taking
place over a long period of time.

Scientifically, there is no evidence to back up ID. Scientifically, there is
150 years of work to back up evolution.
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
Despite all the advances in scientific understanding and technology in a
century and a half since ''Origin of the Species,'' Darwin's theory
remains plausible, yet short of being proved. Rather than discourage my
leanings toward intelligent design, studying the theory of evolution and
the scientific complexities evident in the natural world did nothing but
crystallize the inferences I observed, supporting the prospect of
intelligent design evident in nature.
There is no evidence of ID in nature. Most of the arguments can be
destroyed.

There is no point arguing against ID - as it driven by religion and
religious groups. It cannot be discussed with any backup in the form of
research of published papers with experimental evidence. There are just a
series of quack theories that can be shown to be implausible or simply
untrue.
Stephen Bruun
2005-11-03 02:41:45 UTC
Permalink
You don't need constitutional reasons to reject Creationism...
Maybe not, but here in the States we see teachers suing their schools
because they aren't being permitted to teach creationism - they say it
stifles their right to free exercise of religion. (We also have freedom of
the press, but that doesn't stop many of these same people from crusading
against a variety of printed matter.) And several states previously
outlawed the teaching of evolution. So the creationists chose to turn the
issue into a legal matter, hence it's necessary to invoke the Constitution.
(The creationists can stammer all they want about being "silenced," but no
one has ever made it a *criminal offense* to teach creationism the way they
made it a criminal offense to teach evolution. So they just kind of need to
shut the hell up about this one.)
--
To reply, get rid of THAT THING
Steven Sullivan
2005-11-03 03:02:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Bruun
You don't need constitutional reasons to reject Creationism...
Maybe not, but here in the States we see teachers suing their schools
because they aren't being permitted to teach creationism - they say it
stifles their right to free exercise of religion. (We also have freedom of
the press, but that doesn't stop many of these same people from crusading
against a variety of printed matter.) And several states previously
outlawed the teaching of evolution. So the creationists chose to turn the
issue into a legal matter, hence it's necessary to invoke the Constitution.
(The creationists can stammer all they want about being "silenced," but no
one has ever made it a *criminal offense* to teach creationism the way they
made it a criminal offense to teach evolution. So they just kind of need to
shut the hell up about this one.)
Next up: Christian math teachers sue on the grounds that teaching probability
theory insults their belief in God's benevolent hand.


--
S. 'fuck *their* god, too" Sullivan
Stephen Bruun
2005-11-04 00:21:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Sullivan
Next up: Christian math teachers sue on the grounds that teaching probability
theory insults their belief in God's benevolent hand.
Christian Right Lobbies To Overturn Second Law Of Thermodynamics
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28308
--
To reply, get rid of THAT THING
rojon
2005-11-03 04:31:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Bruun
You don't need constitutional reasons to reject Creationism...
Maybe not, but here in the States we see teachers suing their schools
because they aren't being permitted to teach creationism
Or silently read their Bible


- they say it
Post by Stephen Bruun
stifles their right to free exercise of religion. (We also have freedom of
the press, but that doesn't stop many of these same people from crusading
against a variety of printed matter.) And several states previously
outlawed the teaching of evolution. So the creationists chose to turn the
issue into a legal matter, hence it's necessary to invoke the Constitution.
So you are saying truth isn't the issue, it is revenge?
Post by Stephen Bruun
(The creationists can stammer all they want about being "silenced," but no
one has ever made it a *criminal offense* to teach creationism the way they
made it a criminal offense to teach evolution. So they just kind of need to
shut the hell up about this one.)
Make up your mind, can they stammer all they want or do they need to
shut the hell up?

I am not stammering and I am not shutting up. And the subject is not
creationism, it is intellegent design.
Todd Mitchell
2005-11-03 17:05:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
Post by Stephen Bruun
You don't need constitutional reasons to reject Creationism...
Maybe not, but here in the States we see teachers suing their schools
because they aren't being permitted to teach creationism
Or silently read their Bible
In front of their students, which violates the establishment clause.
Post by rojon
- they say it
Post by Stephen Bruun
stifles their right to free exercise of religion. (We also have freedom of
the press, but that doesn't stop many of these same people from crusading
against a variety of printed matter.) And several states previously
outlawed the teaching of evolution. So the creationists chose to turn the
issue into a legal matter, hence it's necessary to invoke the Constitution.
So you are saying truth isn't the issue, it is revenge?
I think he's saying ultimately the issue becomes a *legal* issue, since
that's where the battles have been fought over this nonsense since Scopes.
Post by rojon
Post by Stephen Bruun
(The creationists can stammer all they want about being "silenced," but no
one has ever made it a *criminal offense* to teach creationism the way they
made it a criminal offense to teach evolution. So they just kind of need to
shut the hell up about this one.)
Make up your mind, can they stammer all they want or do they need to
shut the hell up?
I am not stammering and I am not shutting up. And the subject is not
creationism, it is intellegent design.
And stammering or not, you're still wrong.
--
"I'm the Imelda Marcos of sunglasses." - Bono
rojon
2005-11-03 18:43:58 UTC
Permalink
"rojon" writes in message
Post by rojon
I am not stammering and I am not shutting up. And the subject is not
creationism, it is intellegent design.
And stammering or not, you're still wrong.
This from the only person here who does not know what an inanimate
object is.
Todd Mitchell
2005-11-03 23:10:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
"rojon" writes in message
Post by rojon
I am not stammering and I am not shutting up. And the subject is not
creationism, it is intellegent design.
And stammering or not, you're still wrong.
This from the only person here who does not know what an inanimate
object is.
So your "living, breathing word of God" is *just* an "inanimate
object", eh? Interesting.

--
"I'm the Imelda Marcos of sunglasses." - Bono
Mike Smith
2005-11-03 18:41:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
I am not stammering and I am not shutting up. And the subject is not
creationism, it is intellegent design.
That's a doubleplusgood bit of doublespeakthink, there. You should go
work for Minitrue.

--
Mike Smith
rojon
2005-11-03 18:51:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Smith
Post by rojon
I am not stammering and I am not shutting up. And the subject is not
creationism, it is intellegent design.
That's a doubleplusgood bit of doublespeakthink, there. You should go
work for Minitrue.
Time and again you guys resort to derogatory remarks. You must not have
faith in your subject matter.
rynosseros
2005-11-03 23:14:14 UTC
Permalink
On this day of the Flying Spaghetti Monster 3 Nov 2005 10:51:28 -0800,
Post by rojon
Post by Mike Smith
Post by rojon
I am not stammering and I am not shutting up. And the subject is not
creationism, it is intellegent design.
That's a doubleplusgood bit of doublespeakthink, there. You should go
work for Minitrue.
Time and again you guys resort to derogatory remarks. You must not have
faith in your subject matter.
from this:

ARGUMENT FROM DESIGN (II), aka GOD OF THE GAPS, aka TELEOLOGICAL
ARGUMENT (IV)
(1) Isn't X amazing!
(2) I don't understand how X could be, without something else (that I
don't really understand either) making or doing X.
(3) This something else must be God because I can't come up with a
better explanation.
(4) Therefore, God exists.


currently in this:

ARGUMENT FROM PERSECUTION (III)
(1) You Atheists are mean!
(2) Therefore, God exists.

headed for this

ARGUMENT FROM ARGUMENTATION
(1) God exists.
(2) [Atheist's counterargument]
(3) Yes he does.
(4) [Atheist's counterargument]
(5) Yes he does!
(6) [Atheist's counterargument]
(7) YES HE DOES!!!
(8) [Atheist gives up and goes home.]
(9) Therefore, God exists.



/ryno, the orignal Hornery Critter

--
Penguins - http://www.ucomics.com/tomthedancingbug/2005/10/08/
Steven Sullivan
2005-11-03 19:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Smith
Post by rojon
I am not stammering and I am not shutting up. And the subject is not
creationism, it is intellegent design.
That's a doubleplusgood bit of doublespeakthink, there. You should go
work for Minitrue.
It came out in the Dover testimony that some of the proposed ID literature
for science classes ,was *copied directly from* creationist literature, with the
'God' parts edited out.

THe whole ID 'movement' is also on record as having been developed by
the Discovery institute folk (e.g. Philip Johnson, a DI founder)
as a *tactic* -- a way of introducing
God (specifically the Christian one) into science classes after
more overt methods had FAILED in the courts.


from the ID wikipedia entry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design#Intelligent_Design_as_a_movement


The Intelligent design movement is an organized campaign to promote
Intelligent Design arguments in the public sphere, primarily in the United
States. The movement claims Intelligent Design exposes the limitations of
scientific orthodoxy, and of the secular philosophy of Naturalism.
Intelligent Design movement proponents allege that science, by relying
upon naturalism, demands an adoption of a naturalistic philosophy that
dismisses out of hand any explanation that contains a supernatural cause.

Phillip E. Johnson, considered the father of the Intelligent Design
movement and its unofficial spokesman stated that the goal of Intelligent
Design is to cast creationism as a scientific concept:

* "Our strategy has been to change the subject a bit so that we
can get the issue of Intelligent Design, which really means the reality of
God, before the academic world and into the schools."[29]
* "This isn't really, and never has been a debate about science.
It's about religion and philosophy."[30]
* "So the question is: "How to win?" That’s when I began to
develop what you now see full-fledged in the "wedge" strategy: "Stick with
the most important thing" —the mechanism and the building up of
information. Get the Bible and the Book of Genesis out of the debate
because you do not want to raise the so-called Bible-science dichotomy.
Phrase the argument in such a way that you can get it heard in the secular
academy and in a way that tends to unify the religious dissenters. That
means concentrating on, "Do you need a Creator to do the creating, or can
nature do it on its own?" and refusing to get sidetracked onto other
issues, which people are always trying to do."[31]

//

"But hey", the lying douchebags keep saying, "this isn't about religion
at all! Never has been! EURASIA HAS ALWAYS BEEN AT WAR WITH
EASTASIA!"
--
-S
"The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing stupidity of religious
fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow
Chet
2005-11-03 19:23:37 UTC
Permalink
Would you believe anything about religion, being taught from a satanic
mill?

Religion belongs in Church.

School institutions are a prime example of the difference between church
and state.

Let it be.

Sunday is a day off, so you can think about why you are here. .....go
for a long walk, and think about it. Think it out by Monday; when
you'll be working for That Pharoah God again (the one pictured on your
cash dollar).

Money ($) is God of State. Go figure. ....Money, nukes,
television,....and voting booths.
rojon
2005-11-03 19:50:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chet
Would you believe anything about religion, being taught from a satanic
mill?
Religion belongs in Church.
School institutions are a prime example of the difference between church
and state.
Let it be.
I understand your concerns, but really this isn't about getting
religion back in schools. It is about dethroning scientific
materialism.
Steven Sullivan
2005-11-03 20:27:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
Post by Chet
Would you believe anything about religion, being taught from a satanic
mill?
Religion belongs in Church.
School institutions are a prime example of the difference between church
and state.
Let it be.
I understand your concerns, but really this isn't about getting
religion back in schools. It is about dethroning scientific
materialism.
and replacing it with...

c'mon, you can do it.
--
-S
"The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing stupidity of religious
fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow
rojon
2005-11-03 20:30:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
this isn't about getting
religion back in schools. It is about dethroning scientific
materialism.
and replacing it with...
c'mon, you can do it.
Thanks Steve, that is the first nice thing you have said to me. I am
sure we will.
Loz
2005-11-03 21:11:51 UTC
Permalink
On 3 Nov 2005 12:30:32 -0800, the trouble really kicked off when
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
this isn't about getting
religion back in schools. It is about dethroning scientific
materialism.
and replacing it with...
c'mon, you can do it.
Thanks Steve, that is the first nice thing you have said to me. I am
sure we will.
Rojo is Chet?

Things are suddenly a lot clearer.

Loz {:-)>
xGCU Epiphany
Mike Smith
2005-11-03 23:38:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
this isn't about getting
religion back in schools. It is about dethroning scientific
materialism.
and replacing it with...
c'mon, you can do it.
Thanks Steve, that is the first nice thing you have said to me. I am
sure we will.
So? Are you going to answer? What do you see scientific materialism
being replaced with, eh?

--
Mike Smith
Michael Lord
2005-11-03 22:12:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
Post by Chet
Would you believe anything about religion, being taught from a satanic
mill?
Religion belongs in Church.
School institutions are a prime example of the difference between church
and state.
Let it be.
I understand your concerns, but really this isn't about getting
religion back in schools. It is about dethroning scientific
materialism.
and replacing it with...
c'mon, you can do it.
*raises hand*

Eurasia has always been at war with Eastasia???

Mike
Steven Sullivan
2005-11-03 02:55:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
Post by A.M. Rush
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
You could always ask to be excused from science class when the 90 second ID
statement is read if your so afraid to here an alternate veiwpoint.
Except there's that pesky separation-of-church-and-state thingy.
You want your kids to learn about creationism, put 'em in a private
religious school or take 'em to church. Sheesh.
The UK doesn't have a constitutional separation of church and state. In
fact, we have an established church, a constituitional association of
church and state! However, schools here don't teach Creationism or ID.
You know why not? Because they're errant nonsense that have nothing to
do with science and are rejected by the vast majority of Christians
over here too.
You don't need constitutional reasons to reject Creationism: the basic
principle that we should teach our kids what's true should be more than
enough reason! If you want your kids to learn about Creationism, you're
a fool.
IIRC a year or so ago some UK school was *trying* to teach creationism...
around taht time Tony Blair (a religious man) evinced a rather ignorant 'let's be open to
all ideas' stance towards the issue ...but AFAIK it hasn't gone anywhere. I have read,
though , that creationism is gathering steam around the world, including the UK.


I advocate teaching about creationism if at all as an element of a social studies class,
surveying the history of religion as a sociological (if not pathological) phenomenon.
u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
2005-11-03 13:12:11 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
The UK doesn't have a constitutional separation of church and state. In
fact, we have an established church, a constituitional association of
church and state! However, schools here don't teach Creationism or ID.
You know why not? Because they're errant nonsense that have nothing to
do with science and are rejected by the vast majority of Christians
over here too.
You don't need constitutional reasons to reject Creationism: the basic
principle that we should teach our kids what's true should be more than
enough reason! If you want your kids to learn about Creationism, you're
a fool.
IIRC a year or so ago some UK school was *trying* to teach creationism...
around taht time Tony Blair (a religious man) evinced a rather ignorant
'let's be open to all ideas' stance towards the issue ...but AFAIK it hasn't
gone anywhere. I have read, though , that creationism is gathering steam
around the world, including the UK.
30 years ago, you would have been laughed at for mentioning
Creationism/Intelligent Design in the UK, even among the most religious
Christian groups. That's no longer the case, but Creationism/ID is
still very much a minority pursuit over here... although we have
Luddite nonsense of other forms.
--
Henry
Todd Mitchell
2005-11-03 17:13:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Sullivan
I advocate teaching about creationism if at all as an element of a social studies class,
surveying the history of religion as a sociological (if not pathological) phenomenon.
I imagine they'd object to that too. The minute they found out a real
sociological analysis of religion included Marx's "opiate of the masses"
stuff, the "teach the controversy" crowd would suddenly choose not to.
--
"I'm the Imelda Marcos of sunglasses." - Bono
Stephen Bruun
2005-11-04 00:17:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Sullivan
I advocate teaching about creationism if at all as an element of a social studies class,
surveying the history of religion as a sociological (if not pathological) phenomenon.
I wouldn't teach "creation*ism*" but I think you could probably make an
entire course out of "creation myths," which number in the hundreds.
Discuss not just Mesopotamian stories, but also the ones from the
pre-Columbian Americas, the far east, etc.

This would (1) demonstrate to students that many cultures have many ideas
about how the world came into being, and (2) show the origins of the Hebrew
creation story, that significantly predate the book of Genesis. Focus on
the literary aspects of the stories, but also discuss how local culture and
conditions influence each one (a society that grows a lot of corn is more
likely to have the Earth God emerge from a cornstalk than would, say, desert
nomads with no agriculture).
--
To reply, get rid of THAT THING
rojon
2005-11-03 04:04:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
The UK doesn't have a constitutional separation of church and state. In
fact, we have an established church, a constituitional association of
church and state! However, schools here don't teach Creationism or ID.
You know why not? Because they're errant nonsense that have nothing to
do with science and are rejected by the vast majority of Christians
over here too.
"How would you have any better idea of the "majority" or "average"
Christian viewpoint than anyone else? Have you studied the subject?" -
Mike Smith
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
You don't need constitutional reasons to reject Creationism: the basic
principle that we should teach our kids what's true should be more than
enough reason! If you want your kids to learn about Creationism, you're
a fool.
I have clearly not been discussing creationism. I have been discussing
intelligent design. They are not the same thing. A Creationist relies
on the Judeo/Christian story of creation. An ID proponent only needs to
think that we were designed by an intelligence. Could be Hindu,
Buddhist, may even think that we were designed by extra-terrestrials,
because this



---
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are
clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His
eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because,
although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were
thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts
were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools and changed the
glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible
man...."
u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
2005-11-03 13:31:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
The UK doesn't have a constitutional separation of church and state. In
fact, we have an established church, a constituitional association of
church and state! However, schools here don't teach Creationism or ID.
You know why not? Because they're errant nonsense that have nothing to
do with science and are rejected by the vast majority of Christians
over here too.
"How would you have any better idea of the "majority" or "average"
Christian viewpoint than anyone else? Have you studied the subject?" -
Mike Smith
To some degree. I've seen the opinion polls and the declarations by
Christian religious leaders; I've discussed the matter with laity,
clergy and academic theologians. The overwhelming majority of
Christians in the UK accept evolution and reject attempts at a literal
reading of Genesis. The same is true over most of Europe.
Post by rojon
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
You don't need constitutional reasons to reject Creationism: the basic
principle that we should teach our kids what's true should be more than
enough reason! If you want your kids to learn about Creationism, you're
a fool.
I have clearly not been discussing creationism. I have been discussing
intelligent design. They are not the same thing. A Creationist relies
on the Judeo/Christian story of creation. An ID proponent only needs to
think that we were designed by an intelligence. Could be Hindu,
Buddhist, may even think that we were designed by extra-terrestrials,
because this
Your post ended rather abruptly...?

Most supporters of ID I've encountered appear pretty stuck in a
Judaeo-Christian Creation story. However, if you wish to talk about
ID... You don't need constitutional reasons to reject ID: the basic
principle that we should teach our kids what's true should be more than
enough reason! If you want your kids to learn about ID, you're a fool.

David Hume killed the argument for intelligent design with "An Enquiry
Concerning Human Understanding", published 1748 -- see also the
posthumous "Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion". (Quick summary here
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hume#The_design_argument>.) Since
then, the study of biology has produced not only an explanation that
works for the variety of life on Earth (i.e. evolution by natural
selection), but also reams upon reams of evidence that life on Earth is
clearly not intelligently designed. It is Christian (so-called)
fundamentalism in the US that has brought about this resurgence in ID.
--
Henry
rojon
2005-11-03 16:46:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
Post by rojon
"How would you have any better idea of the "majority" or "average"
Christian viewpoint than anyone else? Have you studied the subject?" -
Mike Smith
To some degree. I've seen the opinion polls and the declarations by
Christian religious leaders; I've discussed the matter with laity,
clergy and academic theologians. The overwhelming majority of
Christians in the UK accept evolution and reject attempts at a literal
reading of Genesis. The same is true over most of Europe.
So, your argument about what "the vast majority of Christians" over
there believe is based on the people you know?
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
Post by rojon
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
You don't need constitutional reasons to reject Creationism: the basic
principle that we should teach our kids what's true should be more than
enough reason! If you want your kids to learn about Creationism, you're
a fool.
I have clearly not been discussing creationism. I have been discussing
intelligent design. They are not the same thing. A Creationist relies
on the Judeo/Christian story of creation. An ID proponent only needs to
think that we were designed by an intelligence. Could be Hindu,
Buddhist, may even think that we were designed by extra-terrestrials,
because this
Your post ended rather abruptly...?
Most supporters of ID I've encountered appear pretty stuck in a
Judaeo-Christian Creation story. However, if you wish to talk about
ID... You don't need constitutional reasons to reject ID: the basic
principle that we should teach our kids what's true should be more than
enough reason! If you want your kids to learn about ID, you're a fool.
David Hume killed the argument for intelligent design with "An Enquiry
Concerning Human Understanding", published 1748 -- see also the
posthumous "Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion". (Quick summary here
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hume#The_design_argument>.)
This summary, if it is an accurate representation of his argument, does
not put forth a strong argument against the ID movement. It listed 5
reasons against design:

1) For the design argument to be feasible, it must be true that order
and purpose are observed only when they result from design. But order
is observed regularly, resulting from presumably mindless processes
like generation and vegetation. Design accounts for only a tiny part of
our experience with order and 'purpose'.

Order resulting from presumably mindless processes ? This is an
argument against a designed universe? This doesn't even make sense.
*If* the universe is designed, how would one observe a mindless
process? Surely he doesn't mean that because vegetation does not have a
brain it doesn't display elements of being designed? ID does not claim
that man is designed just because he has a mind.

2) Furthermore, the design argument is based on an incomplete analogy:
because of our experience with objects, we can recognise human-designed
ones, comparing for example a pile of stones and a brick wall. But in
order to point to a designed Universe, we would need to have an
experience of a range of different universes. As we only experience
one, the analogy cannot be applied.

This is ultimately is a non-point saying that if the observable
universe is all designed, then it invalidates that we can discern that
it is designed because there is no un-designed universe for comparison?
The same argument would invalidate both sides of the argument, but one
must be true.

3) Even if the design argument is completely successful, it could not
(in and of itself) establish a robust theism; one could easily reach
the conclusion that the universe's configuration is the result of some
morally ambiguous, possibly unintelligent agent or agents whose method
bears only a remote similarity to human design.

ID makes no attempt to establish theism.

4) If a well-ordered natural world requires a special designer, then
God's mind (being so well-ordered) also requires a special designer.
And then this designer would likewise need a designer, and so on ad
infinitum. We could respond by resting content with an inexplicably
self-ordered divine mind; but then why not rest content with an
inexplicably self-ordered natural world?

Third non-point in a row. This is an argument based on an assumption.
It says that because we (our universe) was designed by an intelligent
being, then the being that designed it must also have been created
under similar circumstances. There is nothing whatsoever to base this
on. If the universe was brought into existence by a designer, then the
designer must have been outside the realm of our known universe to
start with, and so the rules of our known may not apply.

5) Often, what appears to be purpose, where it looks like object X has
feature F in order to secure some outcome O, is better explained by a
filtering process: that is, object X wouldn't be around did it not
possess feature F, and outcome O is only interesting to us as a human
projection of goals onto nature. This mechanical explanation of
teleology anticipated natural selection.

This is not really an argument against design as much as a summation of
what his stance on the subject is.
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
Since
then, the study of biology has produced not only an explanation that
works for the variety of life on Earth (i.e. evolution by natural
selection), but also reams upon reams of evidence that life on Earth is
clearly not intelligently designed.
ID is not an argument against evolution. Despite your reams of
evidence, I have yet to hear a descent example against design.
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
It is Christian (so-called)
fundamentalism in the US that has brought about this resurgence in ID.
Thank God
Steven Sullivan
2005-11-03 16:59:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
Post by rojon
"How would you have any better idea of the "majority" or "average"
Christian viewpoint than anyone else? Have you studied the subject?" -
Mike Smith
To some degree. I've seen the opinion polls and the declarations by
Christian religious leaders; I've discussed the matter with laity,
clergy and academic theologians. The overwhelming majority of
Christians in the UK accept evolution and reject attempts at a literal
reading of Genesis. The same is true over most of Europe.
So, your argument about what "the vast majority of Christians" over
there believe is based on the people you know?
Funny, I can se the words 'opinion polls and declarations
by Christian religious leaders' as plain as day up there. Can't you?
Poll after poll shows that Europeans are more secular than people
here, including on the question of evolution vs. anti-science.
--
-S
"The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing stupidity of religious
fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow
rojon
2005-11-03 18:41:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
Post by rojon
"How would you have any better idea of the "majority" or "average"
Christian viewpoint than anyone else? Have you studied the subject?" -
Mike Smith
To some degree. I've seen the opinion polls and the declarations by
Christian religious leaders; I've discussed the matter with laity,
clergy and academic theologians. The overwhelming majority of
Christians in the UK accept evolution and reject attempts at a literal
reading of Genesis. The same is true over most of Europe.
So, your argument about what "the vast majority of Christians" over
there believe is based on the people you know?
Funny, I can se the words 'opinion polls and declarations
by Christian religious leaders' as plain as day up there. Can't you?
Poll after poll shows that Europeans are more secular than people
here, including on the question of evolution vs. anti-science.
I didn't see numbers trying to back it up, so I took it as the vague
reference it was.
Loz
2005-11-03 21:19:40 UTC
Permalink
On 3 Nov 2005 10:41:45 -0800, the trouble really kicked off when
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
Post by rojon
"How would you have any better idea of the "majority" or "average"
Christian viewpoint than anyone else? Have you studied the subject?" -
Mike Smith
To some degree. I've seen the opinion polls and the declarations by
Christian religious leaders; I've discussed the matter with laity,
clergy and academic theologians. The overwhelming majority of
Christians in the UK accept evolution and reject attempts at a literal
reading of Genesis. The same is true over most of Europe.
So, your argument about what "the vast majority of Christians" over
there believe is based on the people you know?
Funny, I can se the words 'opinion polls and declarations
by Christian religious leaders' as plain as day up there. Can't you?
Poll after poll shows that Europeans are more secular than people
here, including on the question of evolution vs. anti-science.
I didn't see numbers trying to back it up, so I took it as the vague
reference it was.
Are these similar to the "numbers" that *prove* the existence of an
Intelligent Designer?

--
Loz {:-)>
"Honk if your mental patient is exerting herself"
Stephen Bruun
2005-11-04 00:27:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
I didn't see numbers trying to back it up, so I took it as the vague
reference it was.
I recently provided a link to a poll that *did* provide numbers. As I
recall, your response was, basically, that you simply chose not to believe
those numbers because they did not jibe with your everyday experience.
--
To reply, get rid of THAT THING
Todd Mitchell
2005-11-03 17:15:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
Post by rojon
"How would you have any better idea of the "majority" or "average"
Christian viewpoint than anyone else? Have you studied the subject?" -
Mike Smith
To some degree. I've seen the opinion polls and the declarations by
Christian religious leaders; I've discussed the matter with laity,
clergy and academic theologians. The overwhelming majority of
Christians in the UK accept evolution and reject attempts at a literal
reading of Genesis. The same is true over most of Europe.
So, your argument about what "the vast majority of Christians" over
there believe is based on the people you know?
No, he's saying that most Christians in Europe aren't kooks. HTH

<snip ID propaganda>
--
"I'm the Imelda Marcos of sunglasses." - Bono
Jeremiah Harbottle
2005-11-04 00:37:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
So, your argument about what "the vast majority of Christians" over
there believe is based on the people you know?
I went to a Catholic school in the UK - Creationism was taught in Religious
Studies (Alongside the Big Bang theory!) and as a myth.

Evolution was taught in biological sciences.
Jeremiah Harbottle
2005-11-04 00:28:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
The UK doesn't have a constitutional separation of church and state. In
fact, we have an established church, a constituitional association of
church and state! However, schools here don't teach Creationism or ID.
In the UK schools HAVE to have daily worship. You can, however, exclude your
children from religious activities.
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
You know why not? Because they're errant nonsense that have nothing to
do with science and are rejected by the vast majority of Christians
over here too.
Wait and see. Christians are taking over schools under the new "academy"
plan.
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
You don't need constitutional reasons to reject Creationism: the basic
principle that we should teach our kids what's true should be more than
enough reason! If you want your kids to learn about Creationism, you're
a fool.
Hear hear.
Quintillionth Quaff
2005-11-03 00:21:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by A.M. Rush
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
You could always ask to be excused from science class when the 90 second ID
statement is read if your so afraid to here an alternate veiwpoint.
Except there's that pesky separation-of-church-and-state thingy.
You want your kids to learn about creationism, put 'em in a private
religious school or take 'em to church. Sheesh.
I know a few professors of biology who avow that Darwin's evolution theories
and their follow-up investigations have conclusions based inferences and
leaps of "faith." And guess what. They're not practicing religious
individuals. Go figure.

Q "I raise this iced malt marvel to you." Q
u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
2005-11-03 13:35:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
I know a few professors of biology who avow that Darwin's evolution theories
and their follow-up investigations have conclusions based inferences and
leaps of "faith." And guess what. They're not practicing religious
individuals. Go figure.
Name names and give details.
--
Henry
Steven Sullivan
2005-11-03 16:55:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
I know a few professors of biology who avow that Darwin's evolution theories
and their follow-up investigations have conclusions based inferences and
leaps of "faith." And guess what. They're not practicing religious
individuals. Go figure.
Name names and give details.
--
Henry
Since it's impossible to test everything directl -- and of course
impossible to 'watch' a historical event taking place, after the fact -- *all*
science involves inferences...but they have to be logical, and they have to
have empirical support, and they really should be falsifiable and parsimonious
too.

They aren't based on the 'revealed word of God' or somesuch. I suspect
the professors Quiffy is talking about would *disavow* the uses
Quiffy is putting their words to...unless of course they're
creationist 'professors of biology'. There are 'a few' of those.
One of them, Michael Behe, has been 'disavowed' by his entire
department at Lehigh.
--
-S
"The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing stupidity of religious
fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow
rojon
2005-11-03 19:02:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Sullivan
Since it's impossible to test everything directl -- and of course
impossible to 'watch' a historical event taking place, after the fact -- *all*
science involves inferences...but they have to be logical, and they have to
have empirical support, and they really should be falsifiable and parsimonious
too.
ID claims to be able to make inferences from the same historical data.
Post by Steven Sullivan
They aren't based on the 'revealed word of God' or somesuch. I suspect
the professors Quiffy is talking about would *disavow* the uses
Quiffy is putting their words to...unless of course they're
creationist 'professors of biology'. There are 'a few' of those.
One of them, Michael Behe, has been 'disavowed' by his entire
department at Lehigh.
ID is not trying to argue the subject of God, as such it does not rely
on revelation.
Steven Sullivan
2005-11-03 19:20:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
Since it's impossible to test everything directl -- and of course
impossible to 'watch' a historical event taking place, after the fact -- *all*
science involves inferences...but they have to be logical, and they have to
have empirical support, and they really should be falsifiable and parsimonious
too.
ID claims to be able to make inferences from the same historical data.
They aren't scientific inferences, though.
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
They aren't based on the 'revealed word of God' or somesuch. I suspect
the professors Quiffy is talking about would *disavow* the uses
Quiffy is putting their words to...unless of course they're
creationist 'professors of biology'. There are 'a few' of those.
One of them, Michael Behe, has been 'disavowed' by his entire
department at Lehigh.
ID is not trying to argue the subject of God, as such it does not rely
on revelation.
ID people ire *avoiding mentioning* that the subject
*is* God, because they know that it won't fly in the courts.

Go read up on the history of the ID movement. I'll assume
you haven't, to explain your obtuseness on this matter.
On the other hand, if you have, you're simply lying though your teeth...
just like the Christian ideologues masquerading as 'intelligent
design' advocates.
--
-S
"The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing stupidity of religious
fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow
Steven Sullivan
2005-11-03 19:35:45 UTC
Permalink
more from that ID wiki page, well worth quoting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design#Intelligent_Design_as_a_movement


At the 1999 "Reclaiming America for Christ Conference" Johnson described
the movement thus: "I have built an intellectual movement in the
universities and churches that we call The Wedge, which is devoted to
scholarship and writing that furthers this program of questioning the
materialistic basis of science." ..."Now the way that I see the logic of
our movement going is like this. The first thing you understand is that
the Darwinian theory isn't true. It's falsified by all of the evidence and
the logic is terrible. When you realize that, the next question that
occurs to you is, well, where might you get the truth?" ..."I start with
John 1:1. In the beginning was the word. In the beginning was
intelligence, purpose, and wisdom. The Bible had that right. And the
materialist scientists are deluding themselves." [32]

The Intelligent Design movement is largely the result of efforts by the
conservative Christian think tank the Discovery Institute, and its Center
for Science and Culture. The Discovery Institute's wedge strategy and its
adjunct, the Teach the Controversy campaign, are campaigns intended to
sway the opinion of the public and policymakers. They target public school
administrators and state and federal elected representatives to introduce
Intelligent Design into the public school science curricula and
marginalize mainstream science. The Discovery Institute operates on a
$4,000,000 budget [33] and receives financial support from 22 foundations,
at least two-thirds of which state explicitly religious missions. The
institute's CSC was founded largely with funds provided by Howard Ahmanson
Jr., who has stated a goal of "the total integration of biblical law into
our lives."[34] A CSC mission statement proclaimed its goal is to "unseat
not just Darwinism, but also Darwinism's cultural legacy".
--
-S
"The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing stupidity of religious
fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow
rojon
2005-11-03 19:57:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Sullivan
more from that ID wiki page, well worth quoting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design#Intelligent_Design_as_a_movement
At the 1999 "Reclaiming America for Christ Conference" Johnson described
the movement thus: "I have built an intellectual movement in the
universities and churches that we call The Wedge, which is devoted to
scholarship and writing that furthers this program of questioning the
materialistic basis of science."
<clip>

"Isaac Newton elucidated the theory of gravity, one of the colossal
achievements of humankind. He was *also* an astrologer and
Biblical numerologist. Alas, it doesn't make astrology or
Biblical numerology any more credible. Nor would the theory of gravity
have been discredited if Newton renounced it upon his
*deathbed*." - Steve Sullivan


I don't think you practce what you preach.
Steven Sullivan
2005-11-03 20:33:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
more from that ID wiki page, well worth quoting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design#Intelligent_Design_as_a_movement
At the 1999 "Reclaiming America for Christ Conference" Johnson described
the movement thus: "I have built an intellectual movement in the
universities and churches that we call The Wedge, which is devoted to
scholarship and writing that furthers this program of questioning the
materialistic basis of science."
<clip>
"Isaac Newton elucidated the theory of gravity, one of the colossal
achievements of humankind. He was *also* an astrologer and
Biblical numerologist. Alas, it doesn't make astrology or
Biblical numerology any more credible. Nor would the theory of gravity
have been discredited if Newton renounced it upon his
*deathbed*." - Steve Sullivan
I don't think you practce what you preach.
So, Philip Johnson, the veritable *founder* of the ID movement, and
still quite active in it, is not to be taken as representative of the
true motives behind the ID movement. Got it. The push to get ID
taught in science classes only reflects a
legitimate scientific controversy. It has nothing to do with religion.
It is not a veiled attempt to introduce (Christian) religion into
science classes. Not at all PAY NO ATTENTION TO THAT MAN BEHIND
THE CURTAIN! EURASIA HAS ALWAYS BEEN AT WAR WITH EASTASIA!

(Personally, I think you should get a fucking clue, or stop lying,
whichever works for you.)
--
-S
"The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing stupidity of religious
fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow
rojon
2005-11-03 20:48:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
more from that ID wiki page, well worth quoting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design#Intelligent_Design_as_a_movement
At the 1999 "Reclaiming America for Christ Conference" Johnson described
the movement thus: "I have built an intellectual movement in the
universities and churches that we call The Wedge, which is devoted to
scholarship and writing that furthers this program of questioning the
materialistic basis of science."
<clip>
"Isaac Newton elucidated the theory of gravity, one of the colossal
achievements of humankind. He was *also* an astrologer and
Biblical numerologist. Alas, it doesn't make astrology or
Biblical numerology any more credible. Nor would the theory of gravity
have been discredited if Newton renounced it upon his
*deathbed*." - Steve Sullivan
I don't think you practce what you preach.
So, Philip Johnson, the veritable *founder* of the ID movement, and
still quite active in it, is not to be taken as representative of the
true motives behind the ID movement. Got it. The push to get ID
taught in science classes only reflects a
legitimate scientific controversy. It has nothing to do with religion.
It is not a veiled attempt to introduce (Christian) religion into
science classes. Not at all PAY NO ATTENTION TO THAT MAN BEHIND
THE CURTAIN! EURASIA HAS ALWAYS BEEN AT WAR WITH EASTASIA!
(Personally, I think you should get a fucking clue, or stop lying,
whichever works for you.)
In a thread about whether Darwin had become a Christian in his life,
you said it didn't matter. In effect that his beliefs did not undo the
science. This is when that shoots you in the foot. Phil Johnson's
belief do not negate the validity of being able to separate this issue
from a specific religious connection. I have no problem with saying I
believe in God. I have no problem in saying that I believe that God was
the intelligent Designer. But I see no need to introduce my personal
interpretation into the larger issue. This way the topic can be
inclusive, can embrace believers from other religions, maybe even other
viewpoints. there is nothing dishonest about it.

Sorry, guess you will have to think up something else.
Steven Sullivan
2005-11-03 21:39:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
Post by rojon
Post by Steven Sullivan
more from that ID wiki page, well worth quoting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design#Intelligent_Design_as_a_movement
At the 1999 "Reclaiming America for Christ Conference" Johnson described
the movement thus: "I have built an intellectual movement in the
universities and churches that we call The Wedge, which is devoted to
scholarship and writing that furthers this program of questioning the
materialistic basis of science."
<clip>
"Isaac Newton elucidated the theory of gravity, one of the colossal
achievements of humankind. He was *also* an astrologer and
Biblical numerologist. Alas, it doesn't make astrology or
Biblical numerology any more credible. Nor would the theory of gravity
have been discredited if Newton renounced it upon his
*deathbed*." - Steve Sullivan
I don't think you practce what you preach.
So, Philip Johnson, the veritable *founder* of the ID movement, and
still quite active in it, is not to be taken as representative of the
true motives behind the ID movement. Got it. The push to get ID
taught in science classes only reflects a
legitimate scientific controversy. It has nothing to do with religion.
It is not a veiled attempt to introduce (Christian) religion into
science classes. Not at all PAY NO ATTENTION TO THAT MAN BEHIND
THE CURTAIN! EURASIA HAS ALWAYS BEEN AT WAR WITH EASTASIA!
(Personally, I think you should get a fucking clue, or stop lying,
whichever works for you.)
In a thread about whether Darwin had become a Christian in his life,
you said it didn't matter.
Because Darwin never let his religion drive his science.
Post by rojon
In effect that his beliefs did not undo the
science. This is when that shoots you in the foot. Phil Johnson's
belief do not negate the validity of being able to separate this issue
from a specific religious connection. I have no problem with saying I
believe in God. I have no problem in saying that I believe that God was
the intelligent Designer. But I see no need to introduce my personal
interpretation into the larger issue. This way the topic can be
inclusive, can embrace believers from other religions, maybe even other
viewpoints. there is nothing dishonest about it.
The 'science' of ID is being *driven by* the desire to actually
*surmount* science with ...something else. ID's promoters actually
have no interest at all in doing *science* per se. They want
to redefine 'science' fundamentally.

Darwin didn't want to do that. Newton didn't want to do that.
Post by rojon
Sorry, guess you will have to think up something else.
And I guess, again, that you will either have to get a fuckin clue, or
stop lying.
--
-S
"The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing stupidity of religious
fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow
gmelin
2005-11-03 22:25:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by u***@bondegezou.demon.co.uk
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
I know a few professors of biology who avow that Darwin's evolution theories
and their follow-up investigations have conclusions based inferences and
leaps of "faith." And guess what. They're not practicing religious
individuals. Go figure.
Name names and give details.
Oh come on Henry. You of all people should understand that the
scientific method is essentially one long chain of induction. That's
how it works, and that's also *why* it works. Whether this can be
called "faith" is another issue. All scientific clonclusions depend on
the warrant that the data is accurate and valid and the interpreter's
perceptions are clear and objective. That could be called "faith,"
although I'm not about to argue that's anything the same as religious
faith.

gmelin
Loz
2005-11-03 22:33:33 UTC
Permalink
On 3 Nov 2005 14:25:12 -0800, the trouble really kicked off when
"gmelin" <***@scc.losrios.edu> said:

[snippage occurred]
Post by gmelin
That could be called "faith,"
although I'm not about to argue that's anything the same as religious
faith.
What would it cost to get you to not argue about anything else? ;o)
--
Loz {:-)>
"Honk if your mental patient is exerting herself"
gmelin
2005-11-03 22:01:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
I know a few professors of biology who avow that Darwin's evolution theories
and their follow-up investigations have conclusions based inferences and
leaps of "faith." And guess what. They're not practicing religious
individuals. Go figure.
Well of course it's based on inferences; that's how most scientific
work is done. You compile data and then infer principles from it.
What's the problem? On the other hand, a faith-based perspective does
no such thing. It does not examine data but merely concludes, "I
believe, so it must be true." See the problem?

gmelin
Quintillionth Quaff
2005-11-03 23:04:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by gmelin
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
I know a few professors of biology who avow that Darwin's evolution theories
and their follow-up investigations have conclusions based inferences and
leaps of "faith." And guess what. They're not practicing religious
individuals. Go figure.
Well of course it's based on inferences; that's how most scientific
work is done. You compile data and then infer principles from it.
What's the problem?
That evolution is taught as if it is fact. What's your problem with another
point of view? What's your problem with letting the students decide for
themselves?



On the other hand, a faith-based perspective does
Post by gmelin
no such thing. It does not examine data but merely concludes, "I
believe, so it must be true." See the problem?
There are many scientists who examine data on evolution and say, "how can
one not see the hand of an intelligent designer." You're a teacher. Don't
teach the students what to think, teach them how to think.

QQ
Mike Smith
2005-11-04 00:16:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
Post by gmelin
Post by Quintillionth Quaff
I know a few professors of biology who avow that Darwin's evolution theories
and their follow-up investigations have conclusions based inferences and
leaps of "faith." And guess what. They're not practicing religious
individuals. Go figure.
Well of course it's based on inferences; that's how most scientific
work is done. You compile data and then infer principles from it.
What's the problem?
That evolution is taught as if it is fact. What's your problem with another
point of view? What's your problem with letting the students decide for
themselves?
Evolution *is* a fact. Species do evolve; this is well documented.
What is open to question is whether evolution can explain *all* changes
in species throughout history. Evolution also does not answer how life
came to exist on earth. But that evolution has occurred and continues
to occur is well-established.

--
Mike Smith
Stephen Bruun
2005-11-02 23:02:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Sullivan
Why then, did they hire the Thomas More center to be their
lawyers in the Dover case?
"Our purpose is to be the sword and shield for people of
faith, providing legal representation without charge to defend
and protect Christians and their religious beliefs in the public
square. ... "
How very odd to name the center after Thomas More. He advocated the burning
of heretical books, and of the heretics themselves. That he himself died
for his beliefs demonstrates his sincerity, but there's also a certain
amount of irony or poetic justice involved. The only religious freedom that
More stood for was his freedom to enforce his vision of Christianity on pain
of death.
--
To reply, get rid of THAT THING
Steven Sullivan
2005-11-03 03:05:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Bruun
Post by Steven Sullivan
Why then, did they hire the Thomas More center to be their
lawyers in the Dover case?
"Our purpose is to be the sword and shield for people of
faith, providing legal representation without charge to defend
and protect Christians and their religious beliefs in the public
square. ... "
How very odd to name the center after Thomas More. He advocated the burning
of heretical books, and of the heretics themselves. That he himself died
for his beliefs demonstrates his sincerity, but there's also a certain
amount of irony or poetic justice involved. The only religious freedom that
More stood for was his freedom to enforce his vision of Christianity on pain
of death.
Oh, no one doubts the *sincereity* of these assholes' religious beliefs, rest
assured

Their sincerity in certain other matters is highly doubtful, though, as anyone but
a fool or a liar *coughrojocough* will admit
Chet
2005-11-03 04:02:44 UTC
Permalink
OT: riddles of evolution

Group: alt.music.yes Date: Wed, Nov 2, 2005, 7:18pm (PST+8) From:
***@panix.com (Steven=A0Sullivan)
here's one:
The anti-evolution forces currently on trial in Dover, PA -- and the
'intelligent design' movement generally -- claim that their goal is NOT
to get (Christian) religion into science classes, it's about getting
competing ideas into the curriculum.
Why then, did they hire the Thomas More center to be their lawyers in
the Dover case?
The TMC's stated purpose:
"Our purpose is to be the sword and shield for people of faith,
providing legal representation without charge to defend and protect
Christians and their religious beliefs in the public square. ... "
Hmm.
I think I hear Baby Jebus crying again...
--
-S
"The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing
stupidity of religious fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow
---

It won't make any difference. Your soul has had 2005 years to think
about what happened, to this "Jebus"? you mention. ...you must be
thinking of Jesus; "the one". ...The One we'll be celebrating next month
at Christmas. Basically, he told the followers of The Pharoah God to
fuck off, except he was "above" cussing, because he was more than human.
Ashy Larry
2005-11-03 12:25:32 UTC
Permalink
"Steven Sullivan" <***@panix.com> wrote in message news:dkb3e8$sfb$***@reader2.panix.com...
Bitch, don't criticize Terminator for posting on topic when most of
what you post here is a bunch of shit that only you and your
groveling cohorts care about.

Oh, and the I'm not going to read your reply rule still applies.
But being the tool that you are......
Steven Sullivan
2005-11-03 17:01:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ashy Larry
Bitch, don't criticize Terminator for posting on topic when most of
what you post here is a bunch of shit that only you and your
groveling cohorts care about.
Oh, and the I'm not going to read your reply rule still applies.
But being the tool that you are......
Xbox-lad, they've named a new life-form after you!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_4350000/newsid_4355800/4355848.stm

"Scientists have discovered a gross new beastie at the bottom of the sea
floor, called the bone-eating snot-flower."
--
-S
"The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing stupidity of religious
fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow
Ashy Larry
2005-11-03 20:58:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ashy Larry
Bitch, don't criticize Terminator for posting on topic when most of
what you post here is a bunch of shit that only you and your
groveling cohorts care about.
Oh, and the I'm not going to read your reply rule still applies.
But being the tool that you are......
I see you replied. I knew you couldn't resist. I hope it
was something good.
Steven Sullivan
2005-11-03 21:43:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ashy Larry
Post by Ashy Larry
Bitch, don't criticize Terminator for posting on topic when most of
what you post here is a bunch of shit that only you and your
groveling cohorts care about.
Oh, and the I'm not going to read your reply rule still applies.
But being the tool that you are......
I see you replied. I knew you couldn't resist. I hope it
was something good.
Xbox-lad, I'm confused. Please explain what you meant by
'Oh, and the I'm not going to read your reply rule still applies',
--
-S
"The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing stupidity of religious
fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow
Ashy Larry
2005-11-03 23:31:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ashy Larry
Post by Ashy Larry
Bitch, don't criticize Terminator for posting on topic when most of
what you post here is a bunch of shit that only you and your
groveling cohorts care about.
Oh, and the I'm not going to read your reply rule still applies.
But being the tool that you are......
I see you replied. I knew you couldn't resist. I hope it
was something good.
Ooooh, a followup reply. This could be exciting...but I'll just have to
imagine you're spouting nice things about me. Thanks bud.
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