Union--sorting out what happened, writing an article or two...

[Stephen Shores]

On my blog, I recently started working on an article about 'Union', trying to sort out what happened. The Wikipedia article reads like a rollercoaster: 'it charted well, but the band hated it'.

I've listened to it with fresh ears several times recently, and am trying to reconcile Wakeman and Bruford's negative opinions on it with what the album actually is (I think it's pretty good, albeit a bit too long, and it seems to have charted pretty well).

I'm having a hard time getting a hand on actual sources from the era, as the Wikipedia article doesn't have a lot of attribution and very little of the sources mentioned seem to be readily available online. :(

I recently got my hands on the 'A Perfect Union' bootleg, and unfortunately it doesn't clear things up for me. I know ABWH was working on their new album and the other-band-called-Yes-at-the-time was doing the same and it seems they decided to mash them up. A Perfect Union, unfortunately, doesn't make it very clear what the bands were working on individually. I thought the new ABWH material would have blown me away, but the few tracks that are listed by them are very underwhelming.

The Union tour album also doesn't clear things up, as it seems like it has pretty good energy to it...

[c***@gmail.com]

Post by Stephen Shores
On my blog, I recently started working on an article about 'Union', trying to sort out what happened. The Wikipedia article reads like a rollercoaster: 'it charted well, but the band hated it'.
I've listened to it with fresh ears several times recently, and am trying to reconcile Wakeman and Bruford's negative opinions on it with what the album actually is (I think it's pretty good, albeit a bit too long, and it seems to have charted pretty well).
I'm having a hard time getting a hand on actual sources from the era, as the Wikipedia article doesn't have a lot of attribution and very little of the sources mentioned seem to be readily available online. :(
I recently got my hands on the 'A Perfect Union' bootleg, and unfortunately it doesn't clear things up for me. I know ABWH was working on their new album and the other-band-called-Yes-at-the-time was doing the same and it seems they decided to mash them up. A Perfect Union, unfortunately, doesn't make it very clear what the bands were working on individually. I thought the new ABWH material would have blown me away, but the few tracks that are listed by them are very underwhelming.
The Union tour album also doesn't clear things up, as it seems like it has pretty good energy to it...

I'm probably taking some liberties here, but for the most part, ABWH produced their own materials that Anderson overdubbed the crap out of with session musicans to the point where RW claims he can't even recognize his own work and either/or BB and SH have completely disowned it. The final product impressed the record company so little that they requested Anderson to reach out to other songwriters for some fresh material. He asked TR for some ideas, and TR sent him four songs and said he could use one. The record company wanted all of them, so the Yes West line up finished them up and ABWH added some of Squires vocals to their material and slapped a label on it. Anything BUT a union. That said, there are some nice yes like moments from both comps, but nothing at all cohesive, and I can't recall the last time I even listened to it.

All that said, on the accompanying tour I saw them in Hartford and it was my best concert ever. Even the Union Material, Lift Me Up, and Shock to the System, came across very well.

[p***@msn.com]

Post by Stephen Shores
On my blog, I recently started working on an article about 'Union', trying to sort out what happened. The Wikipedia article reads like a rollercoaster: 'it charted well, but the band hated it'.

I enjoyed the concert with the Union lineup. Saw them in Denver, they filmed it. So maybe the boys were on their best behavior.

The album has some great moments. I like Shock to the System a lot and that fared well live. Some of it is drivel. But overall, there is a good 30 minutes of music in there.

[Stephen Shores]

Post by p***@msn.com
I enjoyed the concert with the Union lineup. Saw them in Denver, they filmed it. So maybe the boys were on their best behavior.

I've listened to that recording and it's really good. I want to see the DVD. For all the crap that was going in the background, it's great that they were able to put their feelings on hold and put on a good show for the fans.

Post by p***@msn.com
The album has some great moments. I like Shock to the System a lot and that fared well live. Some of it is drivel. But overall, there is a good 30 minutes of music in there.

'I Would Have Waited Forever' is one of my favorite opening tracks. I agree, about half of it is good. Someone with some authority needed to be there to tell everyone involved, 'no, this isn't going to work, we have to rein this in'. And I guess that just didn't happen, alas...

[Rick]

Post by Stephen Shores
I've listened to that recording and it's really good. I want to see the DVD. For all the crap that was going in the background, it's great that they were able to put their feelings on hold and put on a good show for the fans.

You may find this interview with Jonathan Elias, the producer of _Union_, to be entertaining. They should have had Spinal Tap as the opening act on that tour:

http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/iv/jeinterview.htm#p2

[Stephen Shores]

Post by Rick
http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/iv/jeinterview.htm#p2

Dude! *That* is hilarious.

"You seem to have written a number of the songs for Union with Jon Anderson in the studio. Was that because of a shortage of good enough material or a planned collaboration?"

"JE: There was no material."

Awww snap.

"Jon said let's work with Steve Porcaro. Hence we worked with Steve Porcaro."

STEVE PORCARO from Toto?? <3<3<3

Wow, so that was a comedy of errors. I had no idea they weren't getting along. I'm a little surprised to read about Howe's playing being bad back then. I guess he got his chops back?

[p***@msn.com]

Post by Stephen Shores

Post by Rick
http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/iv/jeinterview.htm#p2

Dude! *That* is hilarious.
"You seem to have written a number of the songs for Union with Jon Anderson in the studio. Was that because of a shortage of good enough material or a planned collaboration?"
"JE: There was no material."
Awww snap.
"Jon said let's work with Steve Porcaro. Hence we worked with Steve Porcaro."
STEVE PORCARO from Toto?? <3<3<3
Wow, so that was a comedy of errors. I had no idea they weren't getting along. I'm a little surprised to read about Howe's playing being bad back then. I guess he got his chops back?

Toto, I don't think we are in Kansas anymore!

Well, that does explain a lot about Union.

Jim

[True]

Post by p***@msn.com

Post by Stephen Shores

Post by Rick
http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/iv/jeinterview.htm#p2

Dude! *That* is hilarious.
"You seem to have written a number of the songs for Union with Jon Anderson in the studio. Was that because of a shortage of good enough material or a planned collaboration?"
"JE: There was no material."
Awww snap.
"Jon said let's work with Steve Porcaro. Hence we worked with Steve Porcaro."
STEVE PORCARO from Toto?? <3<3<3
Wow, so that was a comedy of errors. I had no idea they weren't getting along. I'm a little surprised to read about Howe's playing being bad back then. I guess he got his chops back?

Toto, I don't think we are in Kansas anymore!
Well, that does explain a lot about Union.
Jim

Here is another good interview, wherein Jimmy Haun describes his experience playing on Union:
http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/iv/jhinterview.htm#p2

[Stephen Shores]

Post by True
http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/iv/jhinterview.htm#p2

Thanks, that's a good one too. I'm glad they got some great session musicians, but at this point it seems to me that one of the problems with the album is that it wasn't really a Yes album at all! But I guess 'Jon Anderson and a Bunch of Talented Musicians Play Some Vaguely Modern Yes-Sounding Things' (JAaaBoTMPSVMYST?) doesn't quite roll off the tongue as readily as 'Yes' (though only marginally easier than 'Anderson Bruford Wakeman Howe, haha).

[Rick]

Post by Stephen Shores

Post by Rick
http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/iv/jeinterview.htm#p2

Dude! *That* is hilarious.
Wow, so that was a comedy of errors. I had no idea they weren't getting >along. I'm a little surprised to read about Howe's playing being bad back >then. I guess he got his chops back?

My hunch is that Howe never "lost his chops" in that he couldn't play guitar well. More likely he just couldn't be bothered to develop good ideas for what to play. He probably noodled around for one take, thought "that's good enough, I'm Steve Freaking Howe", and was not at all invested in completing a project with people he was seriously sick of (and who were probably sick of him as well). I suspect the same exact thing could be applied to Wakeman. The whole thing seemed to be Tormato recapitulated, but Elias tried (with very limited success) to salvage a glossier product out of it, rather than releasing something that would be a noisy, incomplete mess (which is how I think of Tormato).

[y***@hotmail.com]

Take with a huge grain of salt anything Elias has to say about Yes. They said unflattering things things about him back then in the press (including Wakemans classic "I wouldn't trust Elias with *food* mixer"), and payback is a bitch. Look up Howe's "Sharp On Attack", on YouTube, filmed around the same time as the Union sessions, then see if you think he'd "lost his chops" back then. That clip alone proves Elias to be full of shit.

--

Paul

[Adam]

Post by y***@hotmail.com
Take with a huge grain of salt anything Elias has to say about Yes. They
said unflattering things things about him back then in the press
(including Wakemans classic "I wouldn't trust Elias with *food* mixer"),
and payback is a bitch. Look up Howe's "Sharp On Attack", on YouTube,
filmed around the same time as the Union sessions, then see if you think
he'd "lost his chops" back then. That clip alone proves Elias to be full of shit.
--
Paul

All of this has made for very interesting reading. Do you know if there
was similar mutual animosity with Haun? He seems pretty definite about what
he played on vs Howe.

There's been a lot of water under the bridge since Union, and Steve Howe
has done some good stuff in the interim, so IMO if he ever "lost it", he
found it again. (I understand that this will not be a universally held
opinion.) I recall he and Wakeman playing well on the Union tour too.

[b***@gmail.com]

Great interviews. Thanks to whomever gave the links.

I actually liked the entire record.... not a dog on it unless I re-listen to Angkor Wat. I Would Have Waited Forever, Shock to the System (it has balls and in that respect reminds me of 90125's City of Love), Masquerade (wasn't that a Grammy winner?), Lift Me Up, Miracle of Life (a big favorite).

A very nice balance of harder and softer songs, Classic Yes, mixed with Trevor's tunes, and how Billy Sherwood fleshed out or completed on a riff The More We Live/Let Go. A fascinating record, a killer tour.

Good stuff. I'm going to listen to it with Jimmy Haun's comments on what was his.

Thanks again.

[p***@msn.com]

Post by b***@gmail.com
Great interviews. Thanks to whomever gave the links.
I actually liked the entire record.... not a dog on it unless I re-listen to Angkor Wat. I Would Have Waited Forever, Shock to the System (it has balls and in that respect reminds me of 90125's City of Love), Masquerade (wasn't that a Grammy winner?), Lift Me Up, Miracle of Life (a big favorite).

Lift Me Up, I liked it when it first came out, but like a lot of the Rabin material from Talk and Union, it's pop sensibilities wore me down after awhile. Still like the opening...and Miracle of Life not so much. But agree there is some good material on here...and lots of tunes with bits that are solid, but overall the song doesn't gel. That's my sense on I Would Have Waited Forever, Dangerous, the tunes with Haun and Elias influence. It fits that they were taking undeveloped ideas and trying to fill them in. Shock to The System is the one tune that really works of the ABHW material, for me.

Union is a bit like a B-Movie on a Saturday Afternoon with nothing to do. Not the best movie I've ever seen, but better than being bored. When I revisit Union after leaving it be for a few years, I enjoy much of it on first listen. But if I leave it the car cd player, around the 3rd spin, the irritation goes up and the disappointment sets in.

Post by b***@gmail.com
A very nice balance of harder and softer songs, Classic Yes, mixed with Trevor's tunes, and how Billy Sherwood fleshed out or completed on a riff The More We Live/Let Go. A fascinating record, a killer tour.

The More We Live/Let Go is a fine tune. Like it a lot and agree the tour was excellent.

Post by b***@gmail.com
Good stuff. I'm going to listen to it with Jimmy Haun's comments on what was his.
Thanks again.

[Stephen Shores]

It's not a terrible album, I just think it should have been edited a bit more. It's too long. I tend to get listener's fatigue by the time 'Silent Talking' comes on (which is a decent track, but not fantastic) and it's very difficult to keep going, even though I like 'The More We Live' and 'Dangerous'. I just edited the playlist to chop out the tracks I don't like, so I have my own (entirely subjective) abridged version. :)

[Stephen Shores]

Post by Stephen Shores
It's not a terrible album, I just think it should have been edited a bit more. It's too long. I tend to get listener's fatigue by the time 'Silent Talking' comes on (which is a decent track, but not fantastic) and it's very difficult to keep going, even though I like 'The More We Live' and 'Dangerous'. I just edited the playlist to chop out the tracks I don't like, so I have my own (entirely subjective) abridged version. :)

Oh, and 'I Would Have Waited Forever' is the perfect opener for any of the modern Yes albums (maybe 90125 through Talk? I don't know what the eras are named). Sometimes I'll just listen to that song over and over again.

[b***@gmail.com]

I take it back. I like the entire CD. Takes a producer to make a decent Yes CD at the time. I'll go back and listen to the the "Dinosaurs" boot. I didn't think it was _that_ bad.

But Union? ABWH, or A,B, Levin and studio...., Rabin songs, Anderson spotlighted songs.... even a Squire via Billy Sherwood tune.

I chuckle when I remember the press at the time. Rabin said something to the effect that "The More we Live" was the best song Squire had written in years. Think about that one for the moment.

Which, in typical Bill fashion, reminds me to look up any Talk tour video on YouTube. That may have been the only tour I saw three different shows on. I remember it as quite hot, especially after the Big Generator tour which was a letdown due to sound or ?? You know.....

[Stephen Shores]

Post by c***@gmail.com
I'm probably taking some liberties here, but for the most part, ABWH produced their own materials that Anderson overdubbed the crap out of with session musicans to the point where RW claims he can't even recognize his own work and either/or BB and SH have completely disowned it.

No, seriously? Wow, that sucks. Maybe I'm missing some history here...is that typical Jon behavior for the time?

Post by c***@gmail.com
The final product impressed the record company so little that they requested Anderson to reach out to other songwriters for some fresh material. He asked TR for some ideas, and TR sent him four songs and said he could use one. The record company wanted all of them, so the Yes West line up finished them up and ABWH added some of Squires vocals to their material and slapped a label on it.

Hi yi yi. Yes, I think there are one or two of the pre-Union ABWH tracks on the bootleg I mentioned, and frankly, they're not that good, so I see where Arista was coming from.

Post by c***@gmail.com
Anything BUT a union.

Sheesh, it's more of a mess than I knew!

Post by c***@gmail.com
That said, there are some nice yes like moments from both comps, but nothing at all cohesive, and I can't recall the last time I even listened to it.

I listened to the whole thing in one sitting the other day during a long commute--it's difficult to get more than halfway through the album because it's far too long. Plus there's 'Angkor Wat', which IMO is such crap that it makes me want to listen to something else, *anything* else, even engine noise. Which is a shame, because 'Dangerous' is pretty fun.

Post by c***@gmail.com
All that said, on the accompanying tour I saw them in Hartford and it was my best concert ever. Even the Union Material, Lift Me Up, and Shock to the System, came across very well.

I'll have to watch the DVD. The live show they released recently sounds great. With all the garbage going on in the background, it gives me fresh respect that they were able to temporarily put that behind them to go a really good tour for the fans.