Discussion:
Songs that Ruined Everything
(too old to reply)
YesWill
2005-07-20 15:50:59 UTC
Permalink
Anyone see this episode of Saturday Night Live in 1997? There is a
reference to YES here...

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/97/97hsongs.phtml
zencat36
2005-07-20 19:22:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by YesWill
Anyone see this episode of Saturday Night Live in 1997? There is a
reference to YES here...
http://snltranscripts.jt.org/97/97hsongs.phtml
LOL, so true... There's one singer on the INXS show who reminds me of
Will Ferrell. He sang last last night; I think his name is Brad. He's
really hairy and dirty, doesn't wear shoes, and doesn't sing too well,
imo.
Jeff Blanks
2005-07-21 04:22:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by YesWill
Anyone see this episode of Saturday Night Live in 1997? There is a
reference to YES here...
http://snltranscripts.jt.org/97/97hsongs.phtml
<chuckle>

But how could Chicago's "If You Leave Me Now" *not* be on this list?
(Is it too old, maybe?)
--
"There is no excellent beauty which hath not some
strangeness in the proportion." --Sir Francis Bacon
DT
2005-07-21 15:39:54 UTC
Permalink
<chuckle>
Post by Jeff Blanks
But how could Chicago's "If You Leave Me Now" *not* be on this list?
(Is it too old, maybe?)
I'd go even further back and say "Wishing You Were Here" was the end of
Chicago as I knew it. Showin' my age...


Don
gmelin
2005-07-22 05:37:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Blanks
<chuckle>
Post by Jeff Blanks
But how could Chicago's "If You Leave Me Now" *not* be on this list?
(Is it too old, maybe?)
I'd go even further back and say "Wishing You Were Here" was the end of
Chicago as I knew it. Showin' my age...
Then you didn't know Chicago very well; they were doing that sort of
thing from the start. Frankly, I quite like "WYWH" -- well, except the
uptempo middle section. It's no "Beginnings," but I'll certainly take
it over "Free Form Guitar."

gmelin
gmelin
2005-07-24 03:49:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Blanks
<chuckle>
Post by DT
Post by Jeff Blanks
But how could Chicago's "If You Leave Me Now" *not* be on this list?
(Is it too old, maybe?)
I'd go even further back and say "Wishing You Were Here" was the end of
Chicago as I knew it. Showin' my age...
Then you didn't know Chicago very well; they were doing that sort of
thing from the start. Frankly, I quite like "WYWH" -- well, except the
uptempo middle section. It's no "Beginnings," but I'll certainly take
it over "Free Form Guitar."
gmelin
As a reed player in a jazz ensemble in the early 70s, Chicago II and
III were essential listening (as was Don Ellis, Buddy Rich, Don
Piestrup and Maynard Ferguson -- long before Rocky). To make a Yes
analogy, I liken Chicago III to the Tales/Relayer period -- the most
adventurous Chicago ever got. It was a noticeable slide into AOR after
that. As far as I was concerned, they became irrelevant with Chicago
VII. Listenable to be sure, but irrelevant.
Well, I'm not sure what you would mean by "irrelevant." I'm not sure
Chicago ever was relevant, nor that it matters whether they were or
not. If by "AOR" you mean "Album-Oriented Rock," which is what the
term originally designated, I agree, but that's not a bad thing, since
things like "Stairway to heaven," "Freebird," "Layla," and, yes,
"Roundabout," were all archetypes of Album-Oriented Rock. On the other
hand, if you mean AOR to designate the particularly sterile brand of
power-pop-meets-easy-listening that typified the early to mid 80's,
then that didn't happen to Chicago until about, well, the early 80's
(about the same time it happened to Genesis, Kansas, Journey, Styx and
a whole lot of other, previously "relevant" bands, I might point out).

But it's your dismissal of _VII_ that I find incomprehensible,
especially from a, as you claim, jazz player. Granted, _II_ and _III_
were both very ambitious, but how you can possibly consider "Prelude to
Aire," "Aire," "Devil's Sweet," "Italian from New York," and "Hanky
Panky" to be any less so, let alone in any way "AOR" beggars
imagination. The first side-and-a-half of _VII_ is quite simply as
adventurous as anything else the band ever did. And I also should give
props to "A Hit By Varese," from _V_. That's not daring?

"Can you play free
Or in three
Or agree to attempt something new?"

gmelin, who, by the way, prefers to carry on usenet discussions on
usenet, rather than personal e-mail
Jeff Blanks
2005-07-27 06:15:54 UTC
Permalink
And I also should give props to "A Hit By Varese," from _V_.
Glad you should bring this up. This is probably the tune I'd use to
introduce a prog fan to Chicago. Two-fisted Hammond? Check.
Suspended-chord sequence? Check. Guitar noise? Check. (First time I
ever heard of Varese, BTW. For years I had no idea what the word
"Varese" meant.)
--
"There is no excellent beauty which hath not some
strangeness in the proportion." --Sir Francis Bacon
Stephen Bruun
2005-07-21 16:24:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Blanks
But how could Chicago's "If You Leave Me Now" *not* be on this list?
(Is it too old, maybe?)
In most TV commercials for various-artist collections, they single out about
a half-dozen songs but also scroll several other titles on the screen. It's
been a while since I saw the SNL spoof, but they may well have scrolled
other songs and artists.

Even then - the list of artists who've ruined their careers is far too long
to guarantee that everyone gets a spot. And, of course, fine points will
always be debatable - for Michael Jackson and Paul McCartney, why pick "Say
Say Say" when "The Girl Is Mine" is much worse (and, I think, came out
sooner)?

--
To reply, get rid of THAT THING
Jamie
2005-07-22 05:07:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Bruun
Post by Jeff Blanks
But how could Chicago's "If You Leave Me Now" *not* be on this list?
(Is it too old, maybe?)
In most TV commercials for various-artist collections, they single out about
a half-dozen songs but also scroll several other titles on the screen. It's
been a while since I saw the SNL spoof, but they may well have scrolled
other songs and artists.
Even then - the list of artists who've ruined their careers is far too long
to guarantee that everyone gets a spot. And, of course, fine points will
always be debatable - for Michael Jackson and Paul McCartney, why pick "Say
Say Say" when "The Girl Is Mine" is much worse (and, I think, came out
sooner)?
"Say Say Say"--the song Yes knocked from #1. And that dreadful #1 Van
Halen hit "Jump." But where was Culture Club's "Karma
Chameleon"--which knocked Yes out of #1 and which was itself knocked
from #1 by Van Halen? And how about all those #1 hits from 1984 from
movies starting with Kenny Loggins's "Footloose" (which was the song
that knocked Van Hlen form #1)?

Jamie "why weren't these songs on there?" Ghione
gmelin
2005-07-22 05:33:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Blanks
But how could Chicago's "If You Leave Me Now" *not* be on this list?
Probably because it's pretty much in keeping with their style going all
the way back to the beginning. Chicago didn't jump the musical shark
until much later (coincidentally coinciding with the death of Tery
Kath).

gmelin
Jeff Blanks
2005-07-27 06:07:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by gmelin
Post by Jeff Blanks
But how could Chicago's "If You Leave Me Now" *not* be on this list?
Probably because it's pretty much in keeping with their style going all
the way back to the beginning.
Coulda fooled me. I *know* my early Chicago--"Ballet For a Girl in
Buchannon" was The Bestest Music In The Whole World when I was
*seven*--and I wouldn't have thought of them going *that* far with the
A/C pop, even though I always knew it was in their bag of tricks.
(Though the "Memories of Love" suite on *Chicago*, the same album as the
"Ballet", does stink a bit of Schmaltzy '60s TV Music.)

Most people think of Chicago and only know the singles. That's barely
scratching the surface. Judging Chicago by "If You Leave Me Now" is a
little like judging Yes by "Owner Of A Lonely Heart". By today's
standards, the musical breadth (if not always "purity") even of an album
like *VI* [1] gives one pause. Judge them by "Introduction" or "Poem
For The People" or "Dialogue" or something. Heck, judge them by "Free
Form Guitar."
Post by gmelin
Chicago didn't jump the musical shark until much later
(coincidentally coinciding with the death of Terry Kath).
I heard something starting to happen on *X*, maybe even *VIII*.
"Mississippi Delta City Blues", a Kath tune that's one of the best on
*XI*, is a leftover from the *V* sessions, newly recorded in '77. They
could pull out a tune or two on each of the succeeding records;
"Manipulation", Robert Lamm's opener on *XIV*, is a real classic (or a
fragment of a classic). But that's about it.

[1] *VI* is probably the "weakest" of the original eight; I agree with
Jimmy Pankow, Chicago's trombonist, brass arranger, and occasional early
hit songwriter, that "The first eight albums are the real Chicago."
It's worth noting that after then, only Peter Cetera's songs seemed to
get the really big push, with the exception of Pankow's "Alive Again",
from *Hot Streets* (and now you know why Chicago doesn't title their
albums).
--
"There is no excellent beauty which hath not some
strangeness in the proportion." --Sir Francis Bacon
gmelin
2005-07-28 01:51:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Blanks
Post by gmelin
Post by Jeff Blanks
But how could Chicago's "If You Leave Me Now" *not* be on this list?
Probably because it's pretty much in keeping with their style going all
the way back to the beginning.
Coulda fooled me. I *know* my early Chicago--"Ballet For a Girl in
Buchannon" was The Bestest Music In The Whole World when I was
*seven*
Ahem: "Color My World." Yeah, I know, you'll say it's a lovely,
romantic tune, but any fondnes it generates must surely stem from the
fact that it was the catalyst for *thousands* of memorable slow-dance
moments (mine included). Take it out of its Junior Prom context and
it's pablum.

--and I wouldn't have thought of them going *that* far with the
Post by Jeff Blanks
A/C pop, even though I always knew it was in their bag of tricks.
(Though the "Memories of Love" suite on *Chicago*, the same album as the
"Ballet", does stink a bit of Schmaltzy '60s TV Music.)
Yeah.
Post by Jeff Blanks
Most people think of Chicago and only know the singles. That's barely
scratching the surface. Judging Chicago by "If You Leave Me Now" is a
little like judging Yes by "Owner Of A Lonely Heart".
Indeed. I suppose that was kinda my point.

By today's
Post by Jeff Blanks
standards, the musical breadth (if not always "purity") even of an album
like *VI* [1] gives one pause. Judge them by "Introduction" or "Poem
For The People" or "Dialogue" or something. Heck, judge them by "Free
Form Guitar."
Oh no, for God's sake, DON'T!
Post by Jeff Blanks
Post by gmelin
Chicago didn't jump the musical shark until much later
(coincidentally coinciding with the death of Terry Kath).
I heard something starting to happen on *X*, maybe even *VIII*.
You may be right on that. _X_ was the last one I got. I pretty much
never play it.
Post by Jeff Blanks
"Mississippi Delta City Blues", a Kath tune that's one of the best on
*XI*, is a leftover from the *V* sessions, newly recorded in '77. They
could pull out a tune or two on each of the succeeding records;
"Manipulation", Robert Lamm's opener on *XIV*, is a real classic (or a
fragment of a classic). But that's about it.
I don't think I've heard it. But I'm not surprised; I tended to find
his stuff the most consistently interesting.
Post by Jeff Blanks
[1] *VI* is probably the "weakest" of the original eight;
Yeah.

I agree with
Post by Jeff Blanks
Jimmy Pankow, Chicago's trombonist, brass arranger, and occasional early
hit songwriter, that "The first eight albums are the real Chicago."
It's worth noting that after then, only Peter Cetera's songs seemed to
get the really big push, with the exception of Pankow's "Alive Again",
from *Hot Streets* (and now you know why Chicago doesn't title their
albums).
Cetera was always the weak link for me. That might be why I have a
fondness for "Wishing You Were Here" -- he actually created one that
doesn't suck. Of course, having a number of Beach Boys on hand surely
didn't hurt . . .

gmelin
Jeff Blanks
2005-07-29 03:15:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by gmelin
Ahem: "Color My World." Yeah, I know, you'll say it's a lovely,
romantic tune, but any fondness it generates must surely stem from the
fact that it was the catalyst for *thousands* of memorable slow-dance
moments (mine included). Take it out of its Junior Prom context and
it's pablum.
I thought it was considered pablum *because* of its junior prom
associations. It was always my least favorite part of the Ballet, but I
still liked it. It was apparently meant by Jimmy Pankow to evoke the
feel of the slow movement of a Baroque-era concerto; he'd apparently
been listening to the Brandenburgs a lot at the time. It may be their
misfortune to have a woodwind player whose best instrument is the
clarinet, though--not much call for that in a rock band, though there is
"Harry Truman." It may also be their misfortune to have a band whose
best horn soloist is the trombonist.
Post by gmelin
--and I wouldn't have thought of them going *that* far with the
Post by Jeff Blanks
A/C pop, even though I always knew it was in their bag of tricks.
(Though the "Memories of Love" suite on *Chicago*, the same album as the
"Ballet", does stink a bit of Schmaltzy '60s TV Music.)
Yeah.
And I think that's the nub of the issue; people can smell where Chicago
is really coming from, and a big part of it is a sort of music-student
vibe (albeit a "liberal" one) that you don't even get from most
prog-rock bands. That's something most rock purists *really don't*
like. Another part is a real feel for Bachrach-style "grownup" pop
(though apparently it's OK when, say, Everything But The Girl does it).
Post by gmelin
_X_ was the last one I got. I pretty much never play it.
Here's a list of stuff at least worth hearing from then on:

"Mississippi Delta City Blues" and "Takin' It On Uptown", Terry's cuts
on *XI*

"Hot Streets" and "Show Me The Way", from *Hot Streets*

"Reruns", from *13*

"Manipulation", "I'd Rather Be Rich", and "The American Dream", from
*XIV*

The duo of "Upon Arrival" (a rare collaboration between Lamm and Cetera)
and Cetera's "Song For You", might be worth a hearing, though you'll
probably HATE "Song For You", despite the breath of life it gives to the
Unexpected Key Change technique at the end (just subtle enough to
matter, not really announcing itself). One problem is that side 1 of
*XIV* follows up "Manipulation" with FOUR ballads. The whole side seems
to get worse as it goes on, though some tunes probably sound better in
isolation.
Post by gmelin
Cetera was always the weak link for me. That might be why I have a
fondness for "Wishing You Were Here" -- he actually created one that
doesn't suck.
I always was drawn to "In Terms Of Two" and "What Else Can I Say?", his
countrified tunes from *VI* and *III*, respectively. He could probably
pitch those to a nu-country station today and get a serious hearing.
--
"There is no excellent beauty which hath not some
strangeness in the proportion." --Sir Francis Bacon
gmelin
2005-07-28 17:51:10 UTC
Permalink
Just caught this . . .
Post by Jeff Blanks
Coulda fooled me. I *know* my early Chicago--"Ballet For a Girl in
Buchannon" was The Bestest Music In The Whole World when I was
*seven*--and I wouldn't have thought of them going *that* far with the
A/C pop, even though I always knew it was in their bag of tricks.
(Though the "Memories of Love" suite on *Chicago*, the same album as the
"Ballet", does stink a bit of Schmaltzy '60s TV Music.)
I asume by "Chicago" you are referringm to the first album, fully
titled _Chicago Transit Authority_. The songs you mention are both on
_Chicago II_.

gmelin
Jeff Blanks
2005-07-29 02:45:53 UTC
Permalink
I asume by "Chicago" you are referring to the first album, fully
titled _Chicago Transit Authority_.
Well, if you really wanna be all Jim Guercio about it, it's _*The*
Chicago Transit Authority_, though I understand that they didn't use
"The" on concert bills and stuff. (It took me a while after buying it
to notice the word "The" inside the word "Chicago" on the cover.) When
the next album came out, they just called it *Chicago*; my copy is old
enough that it just says *Chicago* on the spine. So that's how I think
of it.
--
"There is no excellent beauty which hath not some
strangeness in the proportion." --Sir Francis Bacon
Teakbois
2005-07-29 04:02:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Blanks
I asume by "Chicago" you are referring to the first album, fully
titled _Chicago Transit Authority_.
Well, if you really wanna be all Jim Guercio about it, it's _*The*
Chicago Transit Authority_, though I understand that they didn't use
"The" on concert bills and stuff. (It took me a while after buying it
to notice the word "The" inside the word "Chicago" on the cover.) When
the next album came out, they just called it *Chicago*; my copy is old
enough that it just says *Chicago* on the spine. So that's how I think
of it.
This one always reminds me of Patrick Moraz's first solo
album...hmmm...what was that called again?
gmelin
2005-07-30 04:23:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Teakbois
Post by Jeff Blanks
Well, if you really wanna be all Jim Guercio about it, it's _*The*
Chicago Transit Authority_, though I understand that they didn't use
"The" on concert bills and stuff. (It took me a while after buying it
to notice the word "The" inside the word "Chicago" on the cover.) When
the next album came out, they just called it *Chicago*; my copy is old
enough that it just says *Chicago* on the spine. So that's how I think
of it.
This one always reminds me of Patrick Moraz's first solo
album...hmmm...what was that called again?
"The Story of Chicago Transit Authority."

gmelstoryofin

Big Z
2005-07-22 10:11:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Blanks
Post by YesWill
Anyone see this episode of Saturday Night Live in 1997? There is a
reference to YES here...
http://snltranscripts.jt.org/97/97hsongs.phtml
<chuckle>
But how could Chicago's "If You Leave Me Now" *not* be on this list?
(Is it too old, maybe?)
Remember that pets.com commercial from five years ago that spoofed that
song? Hilarious!

I recall it airing three times (time enough for me to record it :-) before
disappearing. I suspect that Peter Cetera must have put his foot down the
moment he caught wind of the thing.:-P
--
TS

Our dear friend and fellow prog lover L Perez needs our help in covering the
medical expenses for his lovely wife Barbara 'Spider' Perez.
Please show them your support (Benefit CD Coming Soon!):
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txyesboy
2005-07-21 17:06:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by YesWill
Anyone see this episode of Saturday Night Live in 1997? There is a
reference to YES here...
http://snltranscripts.jt.org/97/97hsongs.phtml
To a 12 year old kid, the story of Kilroy was Here wasn't all that silly.
Man, I loved that album and tour; it was my first concert. I remember when I
got the video of "Caught in the Act: Live" (on Betamax, no less) I was
overjoyed. Granted, time has not been kind to Kilroy was Here, but I still
gave their live show/movie/concert brownie points for at least trying
something unique. It's not too often you see concerts featuring a 20 min
movie/20 min stage show, and THEN a concert.

Just in case anyone didn't recall, Robert Romanus, the guy who played sleazy
Mike Damone in "Fast Times at Ridgemont High" appears in the Kilroy movie,
as well as Michael Winslow (the Police Academy guy) doing an imitation of a
wax museum Jimi Hendrix.

It really wasn't a terrible concept, but it was fleshed out so badly, that
it, well...stunk. Seeing Dennis DeYoung try to act tough by kicking a Roboto
in the balls, well, Dennis DeYoung will be accused of everything else before
he's considered tough.
Morphy's ghost
2005-07-21 22:40:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by txyesboy
Post by YesWill
Anyone see this episode of Saturday Night Live in 1997? There is a
reference to YES here...
http://snltranscripts.jt.org/97/97hsongs.phtml
To a 12 year old kid, the story of Kilroy was Here wasn't all that
silly. Man, I loved that album and tour; it was my first concert. I
remember when I got the video of "Caught in the Act: Live" (on
Betamax, no less) I was overjoyed. Granted, time has not been kind to
Kilroy was Here, but I still gave their live show/movie/concert
brownie points for at least trying something unique. It's not too
often you see concerts featuring a 20 min movie/20 min stage show, and
THEN a concert.
Just in case anyone didn't recall, Robert Romanus, the guy who played
sleazy Mike Damone in "Fast Times at Ridgemont High" appears in the
Kilroy movie, as well as Michael Winslow (the Police Academy guy)
doing an imitation of a wax museum Jimi Hendrix.
It really wasn't a terrible concept, but it was fleshed out so badly,
that it, well...stunk. Seeing Dennis DeYoung try to act tough by
kicking a Roboto in the balls, well, Dennis DeYoung will be accused of
everything else before he's considered tough.
Back in the early '90's I worked with a Styx fan who swore that Kilroy was
here was their best album. I know he'd heard Pieces of Eight, and I think
he'd heard Equinox as well, so I really can't explain it.
rojon
2005-07-24 13:39:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by txyesboy
To a 12 year old kid, the story of Kilroy was Here wasn't all that silly.
...but it was fleshed out so badly
of course you realize that Mr Roboto and Machine Messiah are
essentially the same song. "I've come to help you with your problems,
so we can be free
I'm not a hero, I'm not a saviour, forget what you know"


-
My heart is human, my blood is boiling, my brain I.B.M.
So if you see me acting strangely, don't be surprised
Teakbois
2005-07-24 16:37:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
Post by txyesboy
To a 12 year old kid, the story of Kilroy was Here wasn't all that silly.
...but it was fleshed out so badly
of course you realize that Mr Roboto and Machine Messiah are
essentially the same song. "I've come to help you with your problems,
so we can be free
I'm not a hero, I'm not a saviour, forget what you know"
-
Any relation to "Welcome To The Machine"?
Peter
2005-07-24 17:52:18 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:37:53 -0400, "Teakbois"
Post by Teakbois
Post by rojon
Post by txyesboy
To a 12 year old kid, the story of Kilroy was Here wasn't all that silly.
...but it was fleshed out so badly
of course you realize that Mr Roboto and Machine Messiah are
essentially the same song. "I've come to help you with your problems,
so we can be free
I'm not a hero, I'm not a saviour, forget what you know"
-
Any relation to "Welcome To The Machine"?
Welcome to the Machine Messiah, Mr. Roboto. Would you care for a
cocktail?
rojon
2005-07-24 18:22:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Teakbois
Post by rojon
Post by txyesboy
To a 12 year old kid, the story of Kilroy was Here wasn't all that silly.
...but it was fleshed out so badly
of course you realize that Mr Roboto and Machine Messiah are
essentially the same song. "I've come to help you with your problems,
so we can be free
I'm not a hero, I'm not a saviour, forget what you know"
-
Any relation to "Welcome To The Machine"?
Welcome to the Machine Messiah?

What about the relation between Talk and The Division Bell?

Division Bell's cover conveys the idea of communication plus the album
contains the song Keep Talking which begins with a Stephen Hawkins
quote, "For millions of years mankind lived just like the animals.
Then something happened which unleashed the power of our imagination.
We learned to talk."

The Talk album contains the song Real Love that mentions Stephen
Hawkins in the same context that comparings advanted imigination (his)
to that of primitive animals.
rojon
2005-07-24 18:36:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
The Talk album contains the song Real Love that mentions Stephen
Hawkins in the same context that comparings advanted imigination (his)
to that of primitive animals.
let me try that again,

The Talk album contains the song Real Love that mentions Stephen
Hawkins in the same context that compares advanced imagination (his)
to that of primitive animals.
---

advanted imigination LOL
Terrell Miller
2005-07-25 23:46:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by rojon
Post by rojon
The Talk album contains the song Real Love that mentions Stephen
Hawkins in the same context that comparings advanted imigination (his)
to that of primitive animals.
let me try that again,
The Talk album contains the song Real Love that mentions Stephen
Hawkins in the same context that compares advanced imagination (his)
to that of primitive animals.
try it a third time:

The Talk album contains the song Real Love that mentions Stephen
Hawkin*g*...
--
Terrell Miller
***@bellsouth.net

"Suddenly, after nearly 30 years of scorn, Prog is cool again".
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